Press-Ganged Monsters

[DRD1812]

Let's talk about untrustworthy allies and backstabbing henchmen. This mess generally follows the pattern of 1) party meets creepy critter; 2) party falls for creepy critter’s sob story; 3) party decides to invite said monstrosity to tag along.

“Oh don’t worry,” they’ll say. “We’ll keep a close eye on them.”

But then the inevitable happens. The second that the drow / adorable goblin / succubus-with-a-heart-of-gold gets half a chance, it’s all maniacal cackling and long live the king.

Where do you guys come down on this one? Are evil monsters generally irredeemable, or are they just a pat on the head and a job offer away from fighting for the good guys? And if you do go for the redemption arc, how much work should the party expect to put in to redeem a captive baddy?

(Comic for illustrative purposes.)

[Scavion]

DRD1812 wrote:

Let's talk about untrustworthy allies and backstabbing henchmen. This mess generally follows the pattern of 1) party meets creepy critter; 2) party falls for creepy critter’s sob story; 3) party decides to invite said monstrosity to tag along.

“Oh don’t worry,” they’ll say. “We’ll keep a close eye on them.”

But then the inevitable happens. The second that the drow / adorable goblin / succubus-with-a-heart-of-gold gets half a chance, it’s all maniacal cackling and long live the king.

Where do you guys come down on this one? Are evil monsters generally irredeemable, or are they just a pat on the head and a job offer away from fighting for the good guys? And if you do go for the redemption arc, how much work should the party expect to put in to redeem a captive baddy?

(Comic for illustrative purposes.)

"DM, what are the societal/cultural norms for this creature based on my character's country of origin/culture/religion?"

"Your people typically kill goblins on sight because <reasons>"

"Okay thanks."

*rolls attack roll*

"DM, what are the societal/cultural norms for this creature and have I ever heard of a creature like this choosing the path of good?"

"They're like 99.9% evil...but some do choose to be good instead."

"Alright pal, you're about to go to "Edgy Backup Character" cram school."

[DRD1812]

Scavion wrote:

"DM, what are the societal/cultural norms for this creature and have I ever heard of a creature like this choosing the path of good?"

"They're like 99.9% evil...but some do choose to be good instead."

I feel like this is the default. The orc presented in the bestiary is CE, but it is a "typical orc" on Golarion. Exceptions are explicitly allowed.

It makes me curious if there are any exceptions to that default: these creatures are always [alignment] 100% of the time.

[Azothath]

DRD1812 wrote:

{various tropes/stereotypes}

Where do you guys come down on this one? Are evil monsters generally irredeemable, or are they just a pat on the head and a job offer away from fighting for the good guys? And if you do go for the redemption arc, how much work should the party expect to put in to redeem a captive baddy?

So this isn't about Press gangs... it's an alignment thread

or maybe about storytelling stereotypes.

There are two aspects to what you are talking about;
1) deriving motivation for a character based on his background (including race, class, alignment, skill ranks, equipment, and your setting's background).
2) how to implement various tropes and stereotypes in your game.

IF your storyline needs a good monster for PC interactions or some important plot point then you craft one and adjust it's alignment based on what you need and it's role in your story. It's not a big deal. Crafting a believable character that breaks more than one stereotype takes more skill. Really they move from 'monsters' to NPCs due to all this work.

[Pär Joakimson]

How a Succubus with absolutly no heart of gold whatsorever ended up not betraying the party:

(WOTR spoilers)

Spoiler:

Very chaotic Neutral bloodrager identifies "prisoner" as succubus, after previously having some humorous interactions with her including an in depth discussion of Iomedean-centric Hentai in front of a Paladin of Iomedae and another Succubus pretending to be Iomedae (rest of the table was laughing pretty hard), and offers her a chance to bugger off instead of getting brained by a greataxe.

She buggers off, to reappear in the final fight alongside the evil dude of the module.

Bloodrager honestly states that he let her go, bluffs several bad guy minions into believing she is a double agent (indirectly implying that he works for nocticula in the process), the minions attack the succubus who retailiates. This retaliation convinces the big bad that she is indeed a double agent.

Succubus gets KOed in the fight, but the party takes limited losses because both the big bads GM NPC nemesis and the "Traitor succubus" are considered a higher priority, so the party can do its work relatively unmolested.

Succubus gets healed, and is informed that "well, you bosses are effing stupid idiots who got massively outbluffed by a Barbarian. Why would you follow a goat or a bug anyway? Arent there alternative patrons more suitable to your considerable talents? Especially since you will be the designated fall person for this fiasco? I now recommend that you truely bugger off before the Planetar arrives.".
Which she does.

Bloodrager (via dream vision) is put on notice by Nocticula that "oh my, a mortal who does not even worship me but pretends to do so returns one of my lost daughters into my very gentle corrective embrace, what a delightfull inversion, quite worthy of attention."

2 acts later, the bloodrager has a profance ascension with Nocticula (after braining Baphomet, mythic ranks vs Baphomet as written rofl), is appointed Nocticulas ambassador to Mendev and gets that very Succubus as his "attendant/cohort/secretary/supposed assassin if he antagonizes our lady in shadows".

She stayed loyal and quite useful (and chaotic evil, she was willing to do good acts if bribed by kiss time) until the end of the AP, because Nocticula by GM fiat stayed friendly as long as at least half the party distrusts her and noone antagonizes her.
Her most heroic was impersonating Galfrey to give the Deskarite quirky miniboss assassin squad an ablative target. Even survived this because the miniboss assasin squad overdid it on anti lawfull and anti good attacks, which flat out didnt work against her with her bluffing "I am under the godess personal protection!".

[Mark Hoover 330]

I come down on it like this: mechanically.

In order to successfully fool the PCs (not the players mind you, but the PCs), you need your villain's Bluff check to beat a Sense Motive. You further need to obscure the villain's alignment from PCs with spells or Class abilities that might be able to read them. Even after this villain has successfully implanted themselves among the party, there are still OTHER Divination spells that can root them out to the PCs.

You also have to consider your players. Are they jaded and paranoid from years of TTRPGs? If so, it's likely they're not going to fall for whatever you've got planned.

Lastly, yes, there's the "murder hobo" effect in game. If the players run their characters in the typical "Munchkin" mindset of kick open the door, destroy enemies, loot the room, move on... they're not going to stop and have a conversation with any intelligent foe beyond a Gather Info or Intimidate check.

In short; I don't usually have any interaction with this problem in my games.

[Algarik]

I like those kind of ''traitor'' NPCS in theory, but in practice i always end up roleplaying them way too friendly and i just don't have the heart to follow through their betrayal.

[Sir Ol'Guy]

I can remember long ago, before THAC0, when Druids were a monster
(like Orcs and goblins and Gnolls and... other creatures) that worked with or where EVIL, and therefore where killed on sight. Anyone actually working with them was an EVIL creature and Paladins and Right Minded Persons would fight them... and the world was a simpler place.

Then we let a few of them into polite society - after all the argument went, they are NEUTRAL (which was a "new" alignment then), so we let them into "civilization" and soon Players could actually create Druid PCs and all was Good with the world again and life was simpler... After all, we still have evil Orcs and Goblins and... stuff to fight!

Then we let a few of them Half-Orcs into polite society, into "civilization" and soon it came to pass that Players could actually create Half-Orc PCs, and they joined the adventuring party...

But that was OK, after all, Goblins and Gnolls were still EVIL and "Paladins and Right Minded Persons would fight them... and the world was a simpler place".

But you know I worry that the next thing you know, we'll be letting Players create Goblin PCs and we'll have to let them into polite society too, along with the Half-Orcs and Druids ... into "civilization" and Players will actually create ... wait... wow...

old guy wheels his chair back to his room to ponder the simpler days gone by...

[Something-Different]

figured I'd drop this here...

Go to Yang Kyoung.

"Yang Kyoungjong (Korean: 양경종) is the name of a Korean soldier who, according to some historians, fought in the Imperial Japanese Army, the Soviet Red Army, and later the German Wehrmacht during World War II. He is, to date, the only soldier in recent history thought to have fought on three sides of a war, and this status has earned him recognition." .. yeah, "Press Ganged" three times...