| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
RAW is kinda harsh. I'm fairly sure that the restriction about only using the 'basic alchemy benefits' on alchemical poisons applies to the entire rule set for the basic alchemy benefits. So the only level 1 formulas you could learn automatically are the two level 1 poisons. And unless you have Alchemical Crafting from some other source you couldn't even craft other items at all - formula learned or not.
So work with your GM and houserule something that is more playable.
What bothers me is that you can't take the same skill feat twice unless the feat itself says that you can, and because so if it was't be the way you say, then you would be stuck with it, not being able to craft anything but poisons.
If you want to use other formulas, you have to take the feat first, before you take poisoner dedication since the dedications Alchemical Crafting can't overwrite the one you already took that CAN use all formulas. Now you STILL would not be able to use your infused reagents for non-poison formulas but you could still make them the 'normal' way.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What bothers me is that you can't take the same skill feat twice unless the feat itself says that you can, and because so if it was't be the way you say, then you would be stuck with it, not being able to craft anything but poisons.If you want to use other formulas, you have to take the feat first, before you take poisoner dedication since the dedications Alchemical Crafting can't overwrite the one you already took that CAN use all formulas. Now you STILL would not be able to use your infused reagents for non-poison formulas but you could still make them the 'normal' way.
I would dispute RAI on this. I don't think it is intended that taking Poisoner Dedication is intended to permanently forbid you from ever taking Alchemical Crafting.
As for RAW, you technically haven't taken the same feat twice. You took Poisoner Dedication. Poisoner Dedication gave you a nerf'ed version of Alchemical Crafting automatically. But just like getting a duplicate of a skill feat from a Heritage and a Background, having two copies of something isn't necessarily forbidden. So taking Poisoner Dedication and then Alchemical Crafting afterwards could be ruled to not be the same as taking Alchemical Crafting twice.
I would dispute RAI on this. I don't think it is intended that taking Poisoner Dedication is intended to permanently forbid you from ever taking Alchemical Crafting.
In the Rules section, my answers are RAW unless it's ambiguous and I have to look to RAI for guidance. If I was talking RAI though, it seems to me RAI would be that they focus on poison only so IMO it follows RAI too.
As for RAW, you technically haven't taken the same feat twice. You took Poisoner Dedication. Poisoner Dedication gave you a nerf'ed version of Alchemical Crafting automatically. But just like getting a duplicate of a skill feat from a Heritage and a Background, having two copies of something isn't necessarily forbidden. So taking Poisoner Dedication and then Alchemical Crafting afterwards could be ruled to not be the same as taking Alchemical Crafting twice.
My suggestion was to take Alchemical Crafting first, like with a background, so that it's not an issue with taking it after.
That's raw interpretation, I also considered it, but pretty off ( you have to take a feat before taking a dedication? It's clearly off and unintended) and limiting.
I honestly do not think it's unintended: I think they intended it to be ONLY poisons much like Herbalist [only for herbal items]. I think what got missed was that there where so few poisons, though that might be fixed in new books. So in essence, it'd be taking a feat for 2 free formulas which I personally wouldn't bother with but it's the solution to "can I take non-poison formulas for my other two free level 1 formulas?" and that's a 2gp savings for a feat.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The First Rule
The first rule of Pathfinder is that this game is yours. Use it to tell the stories you want to tell, be the character you want to be, and share exciting adventures with friends. If any other rule gets in the way of your fun, as long as your group agrees, you can alter or ignore it to fit your story. The true goal of Pathfinder is for everyone to enjoy themselves.
This sounds like the sort of case they're talking about. Narrow legalistic reading would prevent you from taking Alchemical Crafting twice, but it's obvious that this isn't really intended. So fixing that IS following the RAW of the First Rule.
it's obvious that this isn't really intended.
"You gain the basic alchemy benefits, though they can be used only for alchemical poisons."
basic alchemy benefits: "This means you get the Alchemical Crafting feat, infused reagents (a pool of reagents usable to make alchemical items), and advanced alchemy (allowing you to make alchemical items during your daily preparations without the normal cost or time expenditure)."I have a real hard time seeing it as unintended when they go out of their way to say it is, especially when it's in the book and section that made "basic alchemy benefits" a thing [APG, chapter 3, archetypes]. It's like saying the Herbalist Dedication isn't meant to be limited to herbal items.
Now if for some reason it was actually unintended, the only way to really fix it is to remove Alchemical Crafting from basic alchemy benefits, and have the dedications give Alchemical Crafting AND basic alchemy benefits like "You gain Alchemical Crafting. You also gain the basic alchemy benefits, though they can be used only for alchemical poisons."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally I would just allow people to take 2 non-poison formulas which can't be used with infused reagents, but I'm aware that's not RAW. Also, keep in mind that depending on what's available to purchase in your region you might be able to just go out and buy some common formulas.
Getting back to RAW and RAI, though, I think it's important to note that there could be more 1st level alchemical poisons in the future. Thinking about that scenario you'd then be getting the 4 formulas from the dedication (with the limitation that they all have to be poisons), so you wouldn't really be missing out on any formulas. You'd just be missing out on flexibility, which makes sense considering that the dedication specifically mentions that you have to pick poisons. With that in mind I don't think it's unreasonable to say that RAI matches RAW and you can't get the alchemical crafting feat after getting this dedication. It's just in a weird spot right now since there's only 2 1st level alchemical poisons (same as how there's no uncommon kobold snares, and other things referenced in the rules).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean that it's unintended that this would block you from learning generic alchemy in other ways (by spending the appropriate feats etc.) as well.
Yeah, this. The idea that because I took Poisoner Dedication at 2nd level then I am forever forbidden to take the full Alchemical Crafting feat and therefore for my entire career the only alchemical items that I am able to craft are poisons. I could take Magical Crafting and build artifacts, but could never craft a smokestick.
That seems to be not intended.
What I am not disputing is that RAW and RAI the Poisoner Dedication and the limited form of Alchemical Crafting that it gives you can only be used for poisons.
The idea that because I took Poisoner Dedication at 2nd level then I am forever forbidden to take the full Alchemical Crafting feat and therefore for my entire career the only alchemical items that I am able to craft are poisons. I could take Magical Crafting and build artifacts, but could never craft a smokestick.
ALL it means is that you have to take the Alchemical Crafting feat first, so you're only locked out if you don't learn 'normal' Alchemical Crafting first. IMO it's 100% intended that taking a feat locks you out of taking it again unless it says otherwise and I also think it's 100% intended that the Alchemical Crafting from Poisoner Dedication is limited to poisons: taking both of those into consideration, it seems pretty clear what the result would be so it seems intended to be that way. IMO, it would mean that they forgot you couldn't take feats multiple times for it to be unintended and to me that seems unlikely.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
ALL it means is that you have to take the Alchemical Crafting feat first, so you're only locked out if you don't learn 'normal' Alchemical Crafting first. IMO it's 100% intended that taking a feat locks you out of taking it again unless it says otherwise and I also think it's 100% intended that the Alchemical Crafting from Poisoner Dedication is limited to poisons: taking both of those into consideration, it seems pretty clear what the result would be so it seems intended to be that way. IMO, it would mean that they forgot you couldn't take feats multiple times for it to be unintended and to me that seems unlikely.
And there are two problems with this.
1) I didn't 'take' the Alchemical Crafting feat when I took Poisoner Dedication. I got something similar to Alchemical Crafting automatically. But it isn't even exactly the same as the actual feat Alchemical Crafting.
I'm looking through the archives trying to find the actual wording that prevents taking multiples of a particular feat. I'm fairly sure that it exists, but I can't find it. But the wording may become very important.
Because my idea is that since I haven't actually 'taken' Alchemical Crafting, then it is still available for selection. So after taking Poisoner Dedication, I can later take the full Alchemical Crafting feat. I am not seeing anything in the rules that prevents this. Links or it didn't happen.
2) It feels like unnecessary paperwork and downtime. If at level 2 my character took Terrain Stalker as the skill feat and Poisoner Dedication as the class feat, that works fine. At level 2 and 3 the character can create poisons as expected. At level 4 my character wants to be able to craft other alchemical items too. So I can retrain Terrain Stalker to Alchemical Crafting as my level 2 skill feat (so that I 'took' the feat before Poisoner Dedication) and then take Terrain Stalker as my level 4 skill feat.
Why? Why is this better, or more fun, or even more rules-legal than just being able to take Alchemical Crafting as my level 4 skill feat and have it work properly?
Because my idea is that since I haven't actually 'taken' Alchemical Crafting, then it is still available for selection. So after taking Poisoner Dedication, I can later take the full Alchemical Crafting feat. I am not seeing anything in the rules that prevents this. Links or it didn't happen.
If that is true, then my Ancient Elf Eldritch Trickster with the Sewer Dragon/Wonder Taster/Alkenstar Tinker/ background hasn't yet picked a dedication feat or the Snare/Alchemy Crafting feat either... :P Do you really think you can take the crafting feats 3 or 4 times, or have 3 dedication feats without the back-up ones?
2) It feels like unnecessary paperwork and downtime.
How? You can ONLY use Poisoner Dedication for poisons: done. If it's REALLY an issue, the ENTIRE paperwork is writing [poison only] on infused reagents and advanced alchemy AND/OR writing [only downtime] on non-poison formula... WOW, that was hard. And if retraining is hard, it's hard for any change you want to make so... yeah. :P
Why? Why is this better, or more fun, or even more rules-legal than just being able to take Alchemical Crafting as my level 4 skill feat and have it work properly?
For a lot of the game I ask "Why? Why is this better, or more fun": it doesn't change the rules though. As to after instead of before 'because that's the way it works?
For instance, I can't take a Ranger that take takes Drow Shootist Dedication at 2nd, Running Reload at 4th as a ranger feat, Repeating Hand Crossbow Training at 6th and then move on to another dedication even though Running Reload is on the list of feats for Drow Shootist [at 8th]. I have to take it as an 8th level feat while retraining the 4th level one if I want it to count. It's not better or more fun [it's the SAME feat after all] but it's the rules. :P
There are several class and archetype feats that specifically list that they can be taken several times. Witch Major Lesson lists a couple of times and specific minimum levels to take the feat again. And Rogue archetype Skill Mastery can be taken up to 5 times.
There are also archetype dedication feats that specifically say that they replace other feats. Such as Duelist Dedication that replaces Quick Draw, and Dual-Weapon Warrior that replaces Double Slice.
There are dedication feats that give the same benefits as different feats without actually referencing the other feat at all. Such as Blessed One Dedication that would be redundant with a Good Champion archetype Healing Touch. But there is no double-feat problem with taking both of these feats.
But ultimately you need to choose one or the other. Either the feat is the same or it isn't. So pick one:
* The Alchemical Crafting that is given by Poisoner Dedication is exactly the same as the Alchemical Crafting skill feat - in which case you can use the feat to learn and craft any alchemical items that you want, not just poisons.
* The Alchemical Crafting that is given by Poisoner Dedication is not the same as the Alchemical Crafting skill feat - in which case the Alchemical Crafting skill feat is a different feat and is still available for selection.
Trying to create any other option is too bad to be true.
If that is true, then my Ancient Elf Eldritch Trickster with the Sewer Dragon/Wonder Taster/Alkenstar Tinker/ background hasn't yet picked a dedication feat or the Snare/Alchemy Crafting feat either... :P Do you really think you can take the crafting feats 3 or 4 times, or have 3 dedication feats without the back-up ones?
That idea that being given a feat (such as a dedication feat) is different from 'selecting' a feat is the only thing that allows these Ancient Elf + Eldritch Trickster shenanigans to work at all. Otherwise you can't select the second free dedication at 1st level after getting the first one for free at 1st level.
2) It feels like unnecessary paperwork and downtime.How? You can ONLY use Poisoner Dedication for poisons: done. If it's REALLY an issue, the ENTIRE paperwork is writing [poison only] on infused reagents and advanced alchemy AND/OR writing [only downtime] on non-poison formula... WOW, that was hard. And if retraining is hard, it's hard for any change you want to make so... yeah. :P
It is unnecessary downtime because if you instead run the game where taking the Alchemical Crafting skill feat at 4th level would require zero downtime. Having to retrain the 2nd level skill feat would require downtime.
For a lot of the game I ask "Why? Why is this better, or more fun": it doesn't change the rules though. As to after instead of before 'because that's the way it works?
For instance, I can't take a Ranger that take takes Drow Shootist Dedication at 2nd, Running Reload at 4th as a ranger feat, Repeating Hand Crossbow Training at 6th and then move on to another dedication even though Running Reload is on the list of feats for Drow Shootist [at 8th]. I have to take it as an 8th level feat while retraining the 4th level one if I want it to count. It's not better or more fun [it's the SAME feat after all] but it's the rules. :P
Heh. That is an interesting scenario. But in this case you have two different sources giving the same feat at different levels of access. And in this case the feat has the exact same effects.
For instance, I can't take a Ranger that take takes Drow Shootist Dedication at 2nd, Running Reload at 4th as a ranger feat, Repeating Hand Crossbow Training at 6th and then move on to another dedication even though Running Reload is on the list of feats for Drow Shootist [at 8th]. I have to take it as an 8th level feat while retraining the 4th level one if I want it to count. It's not better or more fun [it's the SAME feat after all] but it's the rules. :P
Imagine instead if taking the Drow Shootist Dedication gave you a crippled version of Running Reload that then prevented you from ever taking the actual Running Reload feat from your Ranger class. How would that make you feel?
I don't see why you're making such a fuss over 2 gold.
2 gold? Where does 2 gold come in to play?
Retraining costs downtime from the campaign. Depending on the campaign, you may not have a week of downtime available for retraining.
There are several class and archetype feats that specifically list that they can be taken several times. [snip] There are also archetype dedication feats that specifically say that they replace other feats [snip] There are dedication feats that give the same benefits as different feats without actually referencing the other feat at all [snip] But there is no double-feat problem with taking both of these feats.
Sure... not sure the point though: the existence of better made/conceived options doesn't mean other, less well made, options can't exist. IMO, that's the case here.
But ultimately you need to choose one or the other. Either the feat is the same or it isn't. So pick one:
IMO, it's C: The Alchemical Crafting that is given by Poisoner Dedication is exactly the same as the Alchemical Crafting skill feat - in which case you can't use the feat to learn and craft any alchemical items that you want as it's specially limited to just poisons by the feat that grants it. For instance, Running Reload [ranger] locks you out of Running Reload archetype]] the same way.
Trying to create any other option is too bad to be true.
It's a bonus feat granted by another [2nd level] feat along with 2 class features... And it's too bad??? Not seeing it. Personally, I rarely see much downtime crafting with most times it being alchemists that interact with actual crafting with their infused reagents. Most times it's just cheaper and easier to buy what you need. As such, I just can't see the "too bad": even if you where to have game that heavily made use of down time crafting, I have a hard time seeing an archetype focuses on poisons limiting a feat to poison "too bad". To me, the solution is easy: if you want/need to have a variety of options for downtime alchemical crafting, get Alchemical Crafting from something other than a specialty crafting archetype that limits such choices like the FULL multiclass option. On the flip side, if you're mostly interested in getting a few on the fly items from a limited list [like poison for your weapons or emergency healing items] then those archetypes are for you. IMO, if you take poisoner, it shouldn't come as a shock that you're limited to poison.
SO, IMO, if you WANT one of your options, you have to house-rule it to be so.
PS: on taking feats more that ones, it's in the Special section in 'how to read rules elements: "Special Any special qualities of the rule are explained in this section. Usually this section appears in feats you can select more than once, explaining what happens when you do."
I don't see why you're making such a fuss over 2 gold.2 gold? Where does 2 gold come in to play?
Retraining costs downtime from the campaign. Depending on the campaign, you may not have a week of downtime available for retraining.
The only reason the OP asked was to see what happened to the 4 free formulas when there are only 2 poisons at 1st.
Imagine instead if taking the Drow Shootist Dedication gave you a crippled version of Running Reload that then prevented you from ever taking the actual Running Reload feat from your Ranger class. How would that make you feel?
I'd either not take that feat OR take the non-crippled version first. It's not a dire thing I HAVE to face.
That idea that being given a feat (such as a dedication feat) is different from 'selecting' a feat is the only thing that allows these Ancient Elf + Eldritch Trickster shenanigans to work at all.
It's the same thing you're hinging your argument on too. If it's good for your argument, it's good for 3 dedication feats with no backups. :P
It is unnecessary downtime because if you instead run the game where taking the Alchemical Crafting skill feat at 4th level would require zero downtime. Having to retrain the 2nd level skill feat would require downtime.
It's NOT necessary though: the player opted to do it in that order as it's quite easy to take the feat at 1st and avoid the whole thing. There is NO dilemma unless you create it and then it's on you.
Heh. That is an interesting scenario. But in this case you have two different sources giving the same feat at different levels of access. And in this case the feat has the exact same effects.
It doesn't though. One doesn't count as an archetype feat and that is an important distinction and a different effect [a class feat is different from an archetype class feat].
I think it's all restricted, but it's possible the restriction only applies to the infused reagents and advanced alchemy.
They give it all as a package deal, so if that's the intent they should really break Alchemical Crafting away from the other abilities.
But ultimately you need to choose one or the other. Either the feat is the same or it isn't. So pick one:IMO, it's C: The Alchemical Crafting that is given by Poisoner Dedication is exactly the same as the Alchemical Crafting skill feat - in which case you can't use the feat to learn and craft any alchemical items that you want as it's specially limited to just poisons by the feat that grants it.
So it is exactly the same but totally different. LOL. Fine, you do you.
So it is exactly the same but totally different. LOL. Fine, you do you.
"The individual archetype might impose special restrictions or benefits".
Anvil Dwarf: "gain the Specialty Crafting skill feat, but you can pick two different specialties instead of one." this doesn't mean that because it has "special restrictions or benefits" that they get to pick Specialty Crafting a second time.
Web Weaver: You gain the Specialty Crafting feat with a specialty in weaving." this doesn't mean that because it has "special restrictions or benefits" and get lock into a specialty that they get to pick Specialty Crafting a second time.
Well, that can held a lot more worms than I expected.
Let's open a second one!
The Herbalist Dedication grants you "Basic Alchemy Benefits" only for Herbal items (which it then defines), but then LATER in the same feat says
"... and can use Nature instead of Crafting to Craft herbal items. You don’t need to be trained in Crafting or have the Alchemical Crafting feat to do so..."So it gives you Alchemical Crafting but then specifies that you don't need it.
Well the craft part makes sense [you'd normally need craft to gain Alchemical Crafting]. Now on the feat, I'm going to assume they are trying to say you don't need to follow the "You can use the Craft activity to create alchemical items" part of Alchemical Crafting. It's very odd wording but it's ok as it'll work however you take it. If I had to guess, "Basic Alchemy Benefits" was either a late addition of an editorial addition as it doesn't seem to neatly fit into the rest of these dedications.
It'd be cleaner to remove Alchemical Crafting to "Basic Alchemy Benefits" and then add it separately to Poisoner and just add the formulas to Herbalist: I'm not sure what the benefit there could ever be to not using the feat though.
Well, that can held a lot more worms than I expected.
Let's open a second one!
The Herbalist Dedication grants you "Basic Alchemy Benefits" only for Herbal items (which it then defines), but then LATER in the same feat says
"... and can use Nature instead of Crafting to Craft herbal items. You don’t need to be trained in Crafting or have the Alchemical Crafting feat to do so..."So it gives you Alchemical Crafting but then specifies that you don't need it.
For the most part this is the same can of worms. Having Alchemical Crafting (or a limited form of it) and then not needing or using it doesn't really hurt anything.
One that is different is the Witch's Cauldron feat, which says:
You can use the Craft activity to create oils and potions. You immediately gain the formulas for four common 1st-level oils or potions.Which mirrors the Alchemical Crafting rules text
You can use the Craft activity to create alchemical items. When you select this feat, you immediately add the formulas for four common 1st-level alchemical items to your formula book.
But it has some changes made. Instead of giving Alchemical Crafting directly and then restricting it, it gives something that is effectively a limited form of Alchemical Crafting without even mentioning Alchemical Crafting.
And actually Cauldron is both a limited version of Alchemical Crafting and an expanded version of it. Since crafting Potions normally requires Magical Crafting. So maybe more like a limited version of both Alchemical Crafting and Magical Crafting.
But in any case, taking Cauldron definitely does not prevent you from later taking Alchemical Crafting or Magical Crafting to learn how to craft other types of items. Which is probably what the intent of the Basic Alchemy Benefits should do too.
|
I don't see why you're making such a fuss over 2 gold.2 gold? Where does 2 gold come in to play?
A level 1 formula is 1 gold. You guys are arguing about whether or not you can get the other two formulas that are normally granted by Alchemical Crafting.
If it does restrict it (which sounds most likely), you just lose the 2 gold of free formulas.
If it doesn't, you saved 2 gold on free formulas.
It's not like this is going to make or break a character. 2 gold is chump change by level 2.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see why you're making such a fuss over 2 gold.2 gold? Where does 2 gold come in to play?A level 1 formula is 1 gold. You guys are arguing about whether or not you can get the other two formulas that are normally granted by Alchemical Crafting.
If it does restrict it (which sounds most likely), you just lose the 2 gold of free formulas.
You aren't understanding the contested sections then.
If you are running the game as greystone suggests, then what you lose is the ability to craft anything except poisons.
You can learn the other formulas by paying gold (I don't actually think you need any feat at all to buy a formula book and pay to put formulas in it). But you couldn't craft so much as a smokestick.
You also lose the ability to take the full Alchemical Crafting feat that would let you craft the other formulas in your formula book.
Basically, once you take Poisoner Dedication, poisons is all that you will ever be crafting.
|
|
I don't see why you're making such a fuss over 2 gold.2 gold? Where does 2 gold come in to play?A level 1 formula is 1 gold. You guys are arguing about whether or not you can get the other two formulas that are normally granted by Alchemical Crafting.
If it does restrict it (which sounds most likely), you just lose the 2 gold of free formulas.
You aren't understanding the contested sections then.
If you are running the game as greystone suggests, then what you lose is the ability to craft anything except poisons.
You can learn the other formulas by paying gold (I don't actually think you need any feat at all to buy a formula book and pay to put formulas in it). But you couldn't craft so much as a smokestick.
You also lose the ability to take the full Alchemical Crafting feat that would let you craft the other formulas in your formula book.
Basically, once you take Poisoner Dedication, poisons is all that you will ever be crafting.
That's not what they're suggesting it all...
Crafting is a completely separate activity from your Advanced Alchemy. You can craft whatever you want as long as you meet the requirements and spend the appropriate amount of downtime. You can learn any formula you want as long as you spend the gold/time. Alchemical Crafting is a prerequisite to craft alchemical items, but you don't use alchemical crafting to craft anything.
You just can't use Advanced Alchemy on anything other than Poisons (Unless you also have it from another class/dedication), and your free formula have to be poisons. That's it.
I don't see why you're making such a fuss over 2 gold.2 gold? Where does 2 gold come in to play?A level 1 formula is 1 gold. You guys are arguing about whether or not you can get the other two formulas that are normally granted by Alchemical Crafting.
If it does restrict it (which sounds most likely), you just lose the 2 gold of free formulas.
You aren't understanding the contested sections then.
If you are running the game as greystone suggests, then what you lose is the ability to craft anything except poisons.
You can learn the other formulas by paying gold (I don't actually think you need any feat at all to buy a formula book and pay to put formulas in it). But you couldn't craft so much as a smokestick.
You also lose the ability to take the full Alchemical Crafting feat that would let you craft the other formulas in your formula book.
Basically, once you take Poisoner Dedication, poisons is all that you will ever be crafting.
That's not what they're suggesting it all...
Crafting is a completely separate activity from your Advanced Alchemy. You can craft whatever you want as long as you meet the requirements and spend the appropriate amount of downtime. You can learn any formula you want as long as you spend the gold/time. Alchemical Crafting is a prerequisite to craft alchemical items, but you don't use alchemical crafting to craft anything.
You just can't use Advanced Alchemy on anything other than Poisons (Unless you also have it from another class/dedication), and your free formula have to be poisons. That's it.
I agree with you, but some of the discussion above was actually about what breithauptclan described
Basically, once you take Poisoner Dedication, poisons is all that you will ever be crafting.That's not what they're suggesting it all...
No, that is pretty much exactly what graystone is suggesting.
Alchemical Crafting that is given by Poisoner Dedication is exactly the same as the Alchemical Crafting skill feat - in which case you can't use the feat to learn and craft any alchemical items that you want as it's specially limited to just poisons by the feat that grants it.
-----
Crafting is a completely separate activity from your Advanced Alchemy. You can craft whatever you want as long as you meet the requirements and spend the appropriate amount of downtime. You can learn any formula you want as long as you spend the gold/time. Alchemical Crafting is a prerequisite to craft alchemical items, but you don't use alchemical crafting to craft anything.
Hmm...
You need the Alchemical Crafting skill feat to create alchemical items, the Magical Crafting skill feat to create magic items, and the Snare Crafting feat to create snares.
If you are ruling that the version of Alchemical Crafting is limited use to only allow crafting poison items, then this rule could be used to enforce that.
The way that you are ruling it is much closer to my option 1 - that the Alchemical Crafting that Poisoner Dedication gives you is able to let you craft anything that you know the formula for. So you wouldn't need to take the Alchemical Crafting skill feat separately at all.
You just can't use Advanced Alchemy on anything other than Poisons (Unless you also have it from another class/dedication), and your free formula have to be poisons. That's it.
Yes, I would absolutely agree with this independently of the ruling on Alchemical Crafting.
Crafting is a completely separate activity from your Advanced Alchemy.
It's not when you're taking one of the archetypes with basic alchemy benefits as you get Alchemical Crafting feat, infused reagents, and advanced alchemy as a package and that entire package has a limitation attached: "You gain the basic alchemy benefits, though they can be used only for alchemical poisons."
You can't craft alchemy items without Alchemical Crafting and basic alchemy benefits, which includes Alchemical Crafting, "can be used only for alchemical poisons" so I don't see how "You can craft whatever you want" as you don't "meet the requirements" given in the Poisoner Dedication feat. [or herbal items with the Herbalist Dedication]
|
|
Oh, guess I wasn't reading closely enough then lol.
You can't craft alchemy items without Alchemical Crafting and basic alchemy benefits, which includes Alchemical Crafting, "can be used only for alchemical poisons" so I don't see how "You can craft whatever you want" as you don't "meet the requirements" given in the Poisoner Dedication feat. [or herbal items with the Herbalist Dedication]
Basic Alchemy benefits grants the Alchemical Crafting skill feat because without it, you can't craft anything. Here's how crafting alchemical items works:
In order to craft anything, you need to use the Crafting downtime activity. The most relevant info here is the second sentence "You need the Alchemical Crafting skill feat to create alchemical items, the Magical Crafting skill feat to create magic items, and the Snare Crafting feat to create snares."
The Alchemical Crafting skill feat says "You can use the Craft activity to create alchemical items." I agree that if you choose poisoner and don't have the feat yet, you should only be able to choose poisons, but it's not really a big deal since you would only save 2 gold.
And finally, Advanced Alchemy explains: "During your daily preparations, after producing new infused reagents, you can spend batches of those infused reagents to create infused alchemical items. You don't need to attempt a Crafting check to do this, and you ignore both the number of days typically required to create the items and any alchemical reagent requirements." This means you are using the Craft activity to make your alchemical items when you use Advanced Alchemy.
So with all this info, we go to the Poisoner archetype. There is a restriction on your Basic Alchemy Benefits where you can only use them for Poisons. So, that applies to Advanced Alchemy, and what you choose when you gain Alchemical Crafting. But, that in no way alters the generic Craft activity. The prerequisite in the Craft activity has not changed, and you have the Alchemical Crafting skill feat, so you are still able to craft anything you want by using the generic Craft activity.
tl;dr: Basic Alchemy Benefits do not modify the generic Craft activity, and to imply so shows a complete misunderstanding of the rules.
So with all this info, we go to the Poisoner archetype. There is a restriction on your Basic Alchemy Benefits where you can only use them for Poisons. So, that applies to Advanced Alchemy, and what you choose when you gain Alchemical Crafting. But, that in no way alters the generic Craft activity.
We agree so far.
The prerequisite in the Craft activity has not changed, and you have the Alchemical Crafting skill feat, so you are still able to craft anything you want by using the generic Craft activity.
Here is where we part ways. The prerequisite for Crafting alchemy items if the Alchemical Crafting, and the one we gain has a limitation attached: "can be used only for alchemical poisons". So when Alchemical Crafting says "You can use the Craft activity to create alchemical items" the limitation makes it "You can use the Craft activity to create alchemical poisons" instead. Nothing about crafting changed. Instead, what the feat allows you to create is more limited.
It boils down to adding "You can use the Craft activity to create alchemical items" and "can be used only for alchemical poisons" because Advanced Alchemy is part of the package deal called basic alchemy benefits. It's a limit on the Craft activity allowed by Alchemical Crafting and Advanced Alchemy. Advanced Alchemy alters what items the Craft activity can make, so I can't see how there is any issue with Poisoner Dedication limiting what bonus items the Craft activity can make. Saying Basic Alchemy Benefits do not modify the generic Craft activity fails on it's face as Alchemical Crafting's main reason for being is to modify the generic Craft activity to allow alchemy items and Alchemical Crafting is an integral part of Basic Alchemy Benefits.
|
|
Again, you aren't using Alchemical Crafting to craft anything. Just by having it you meet the prerequisite to craft any Alchemical item. Advanced Alchemy only affects items crafted during your daily prep when you use Infused Reagents, not every single possible item you can craft. You only gain Alchemical Crafting from Basic Alchemy benefits because if you didn't you wouldn't be able to craft anything with Advanced Alchemy.
It's definitely not intended to limit normal crafting and I have no idea how you are even making that leap in logic.
Again, you aren't using Alchemical Crafting to craft anything.
But Alchemical Crafting is what allows alchemical items to be crafted in the first place: by default, they can't be made. The prerequisite to make them is Alchemical Crafting
Just by having it you meet the prerequisite to craft any Alchemical item.
Normally, yes, but Basic Alchemy Benefits has a basic restriction on it to being ONLY able to make poisons and Alchemical Crafting is included.
Advanced Alchemy only affects items crafted during your daily prep when you use Infused Reagents, not every single possible item you can craft.
A very moot point: the restriction is onthe entire package that is called basic alchemy benefits. It NEVER EVER states that ONLY Advanced Alchemy is restricted by it.
You only gain Alchemical Crafting from Basic Alchemy benefits because if you didn't you wouldn't be able to craft anything with Advanced Alchemy.
Meaningless speculation. They COULD have given Alchemical Crafting separate from Basic Alchemy Benefits and still had the same effect: 'Gain Advanced Alchemy and basic alchemy benefits [which now only have Advanced Alchemy and Infused Reagents]'. So, NO, you didn't have to gain it in the basic package.
Secondly, it specifically covers this: "The individual archetype might impose special restrictions or benefits, or adjust the number of reagents you get or your advanced alchemy level." a blanket restriction on the benefits is by definition a blanket restriction.
It's definitely not intended to limit normal crafting and I have no idea how you are even making that leap in logic.
Neither you or I can 100% say what is or isn't intended. Not that it matters as the rules are pretty clear: the Alchemical Crafting feat is restricted as written. It's not a "leap in logic" but a plain reading of English: A leap of logic is reading "though they can be used only for alchemical poisons" and then conclude that they CAN be use for something other than poisons.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh gosh almighty, what a mess.
RAW here is clear, to me at least, they really are restricted to Poisons even for that feat. I don't think this was intentional though as it makes NO sense to lock a character out of downtime Alchemical Crafting or even potentially being able to ever use the Alchemist Dedication later on just because you picked the Poisoner Dedication first without purposefully taking the individual Skill Feat for it previously.
I would never enforce this, but the wording here does seem rather ironclad, if unfortunate.
Oh gosh almighty, what a mess.
RAW here is clear, to me at least, they really are restricted to Poisons even for that feat. I don't think this was intentional though as it makes NO sense to lock a character out of downtime Alchemical Crafting or even potentially being able to ever use the Alchemist Dedication later on just because you picked the Poisoner Dedication first without purposefully taking the individual Skill Feat for it previously.
I would never enforce this, but the wording here does seem rather ironclad, if unfortunate.
Personally I think RAW leans slightly that way, yes, though, it's so ridiculous from a practical perspective that I'd never enforce it. That being said, I don't think it's as clear as others seem to think it is. Specifically, I don't think it's particularly clear what qualifies as using the basic alchemy benefits in the relevant sentence. For reference, we have:
You gain the basic alchemy benefits, though they can be used only for alchemical poisons.
By that I mean are basic alchemy benefits really being used whenever something that references the alchemical crafting feat comes up? After all, when you craft during downtime you're not checking whether you have the basic alchemy benefits, as you don't need those. Rather, you're checking whether you have the alchemical crafting feat.
I wouldn't go as far as Cordell and say that the RAW is particularly in my favor here, but rather am simply saying that it's not as cut and dry as graystone is making it out to be. Either way, though, I just think it's an unnecessary restriction. Moreover, it's even more ridiculous to have them be able to do something by getting feats A and B at second and 4th level respectively (alchemical crafting, then BAB), but not the other way around (BAB, then alchemical crafting).
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the reason people are thinking it restricts is because they think you "use" Alchemical Crafting to craft alchemical items. This isn't how the feat works. It's simply a prerequisite. When you want to Craft an alchemical item, you first check if you have a feat called Alchemical Crafting. If you do, you can craft the alchemical item. It doesn't matter where you got it from. Think of it this way:
1. You can only use Infused Reagents on poisons. This is fine, since they are consumed by Advanced Alchemy.
2. You can only use Advanced Alchemy on poisons. This is fine since you use Advanced Alchemy during your daily prep to Craft items.
3. You can only use Alchemical Crafting on poisons. Well, you don't use this feat. It's not an action, it's not an activity, it doesn't even specify any specific time period. It's just a feat that the Craft activity requires to Craft an alchemical item.
I seriously don't understand why you guys believe a dedication can alter how a standard activity works permanently with no way to fix outside retraining. Even if you believe it's "RAW" it's fundamentally broken in the worst way and doesn't even deserve to be acknowledged as an actual possibility of how things in this game should work.
If it were intended that picking up Poisoner or Herbalist would lock you out of ever crafting specific items, it would have a way to unlock those items in the future. The developers would never permanently lock you out of something like what items you can craft with your downtime.