I won't be picking apart the diabolist to give a complete answer. At least not tonight.
I will, however, say this. If you make a wizard with the Familiar Arcane Bond, and then take the Improved familiar feat, to get an Imp familiar, you get to have 2 Imps, one on each shoulder, that can advice you, and whisper hellish corruption in your ears. One is loyal to you, one is loyal to hell.
I'd argue that this makes it useful, for its flavour value alone. Especially in Way of the Wicked :)
-Nearyn
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I will, however, say this. If you make a wizard with the Familiar Arcane Bond, and then take the Improved familiar feat, to get an Imp familiar, you get to have 2 Imps, one on each shoulder, that can advice you, and whisper hellish corruption in your ears. One is loyal to you, one is loyal to hell.
I'd argue that this makes it useful, for its flavour value alone. Especially in Way of the Wicked :)
I agree that this is a great idea and full of flavor. Heck, the PrC fits theme and flavor.
IMO, just take the Infernal Binder archetype coupled with True Name discovery at level 11 or 15.
If you have access to the Ult. Campaign, you could take the Fiend Blood Racial Trait and the Damned story feat.
It may be worth just taking a one level dip. The Imp Animal Companion is a boss and he uses your caster level, so if you picked up other PRC's it would still level your imp. I have the imp in a game, and arguably he's better than any other animal companion(I have 4 characters with AC's besides him) and way better than familiars. He's certainly more versatile. Just a nice one level dip on my conjuration wizard.
If you go sorcerer its probably more worth taking it all the way as most the class abilities synergize REALLY well with Charisma. Hellfire damage alone is really useful, especially if your a blaster. Plus you keep learning spells and don't have to spend money to scribe new ones in your spellbook.
Oh, AND its WOTW! Asmodeus is your man in that one! That means this also drips with flavor. I also have a feeling you can get more use out of its capstone in that campaign than probably any other out there!
I would like to see a build for this.
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[qoute=Under A Bleeding Sun]Oh, AND its WOTW! Asmodeus is your man in that one! That means this also drips with flavor. I also have a feeling you can get more use out of its capstone in that campaign than probably any other out there!
I do love the PrC for it's flavor. However, is the PrC useful - especially in Way of the Wicked.
Never played way of the wicked, though I glanced through book one when I was considering running it.
Its a really good PRC, probably doubly so for WOTW. Like I said, the capstone is pretty crappy in most games (how often do you learn devils names.) I imagine since your go to guy in the AP is Asmodeus, you might learn some devil names. Getting lots of pluses to Cha for interacting with them pretty much would guarantee your success on a sorcerer.
The Imp AC is a boss.
Half of hellfire ignores any kind of resistance someone may have.
Free DDoor and Teleport.
So, its probably useful in WOTW. Its pretty good in a regular game anyway. If I was going to play WOTW and I wasn't going Anti-Paladin (I have a really good Anti-Paladin build I'd like to try someday) I would most certainly make a Sorcerer/Diabolist.
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So, its probably useful in WOTW. Its pretty good in a regular game anyway. If I was going to play WOTW and I wasn't going Anti-Paladin (I have a really good Anti-Paladin build I'd like to try someday) I would most certainly make a Sorcerer/Diabolist.
Thanks for the info. What bloodline would you guys suggest? Any template (crossblooded or wildblooded)?
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Looking around at somethings for Sorcerer, I thought of something. Would Tattooed Sorcerer Archetype and possible Abyssal Bloodline work for this? Tattooed Sorcerer gives a familiar (which I think I can turn into an inp with Imp. Familiar feat and replaces the Abyssal's claws bloodline power (not a big deal to me), and replaces some of the Abyssal ones I don't think are that big of a deal. Opinions?
I've got a sorcerer diabolist in my wotw campaign, and her diplomacy bonuses for contracts are in the extreme range.
Also, if you work on it with your GM, this could open up the road for the 'devil bound' archetype. (Especially since wotw has extra rules for making vampire and lich templates possible without loosing levels on them. I ruled it should be possible to take this template. My diabolist already has her contract; two other characters are working on it.)
Well, thematically you could do Infernal Bloodline. If you happen to be a tiefling Infernal Bloodline really increases your spellcasting ability. You COULD take Improved Fiendish Sorcery and Crossblood with Rakshasa or shadow (Rakshasa is more thematic, IMO) and effectively have a +4 Charisma for pretty much everything related to spellcasting;) Not too hard to have 24 effective charisma, throw on spell focus and you have stupid saves, particularly for charms, which is very fitting. A Rakshasa Tiefling works great for that combo. Crossblooded does have some major drawbacks though, so weigh those of course.
Personally, I love tattooed sorcerer. It gives up your 1st level bloodline (which is usually only ok) and eschew materials for what I consider being much better abilities. I don't like its advancement though, b/c the higher level bloodline powers are usually boss. All my sorcerers are dips currently, no straight sorcerer. If you plan on taking the PRC as soon as possible you don't really take the hits of tattooed sorcerer though and I'd say its worth it.
Luckily, Crossblooded and Tattooed stack too!
Personally I'd say it's great for a one level dip, but just be especially cautious with your life if you do so. Make sure that they can make the Caster Level check easily to keep them from wasting Raise Dead on you, otherwise a lot of money will have to be spent to get you back.
For me, I think a two-level dip is actually really nice for Blaster wizards or Sorcerers (or anyone that plans on blasting), due to the lovely ability to change elemental damage to Hellfire damage, which (I believe) is unresisted by most everything.
A three level dip, while questionable, allows you to retrain out the annoying Spell Focus (Conjuration) that's required for Augment Summoning, so that's useful if your blaster wants to double as a summoner.
Overall, not much beyond third level is really interesting. Heresy can be used to help recruit specific Devils, and Infernal Charisma and Bargaining is useful to ensure their service. The capstone is especially useful, but overall this class (if used beyond the dip for the Imp companion and Hellfire) requires DM cooperation and downtime to use the Planar Binding assistance. With DM cooperation, this is an incredibly useful class and full of RP opportunity, especially for an Evil campaign. Just make sure that your DM and party members are okay with you damning yourself to Hell.
EDIT:
For Way of the Wicked? Hell yes take this class. Even if it's just a one level dip it still is bloody awesome! Take it with Sorcerer (maybe) if you plan on binding, (since you get better Charisma), or if you are just taking the one level then go with Wizard or Sorcerer as nothing really pushes you one way or the other.
What about the Daemon Bloodline?
Daemon seems like it would be really cool for a blaster! Other than the arcana it works out nearly the same as Infernal. The one bad thing is it doesn't stack with other things that raise your level, so if you take tattooed you'd get less mileage out of it, sometimes. Still, seems like it could be really good with, especially with hellfire damage. Its probably slightly less thematic than infernal too, as it deal with Demons not devils, but not too much so, you want to dominate the other race;)
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I talked with my DM/GM and he will not allow the Tattooed Sorcerer and Crossblooded stack (whether it is, or isn't, against the rules). So, thats out.
Looking at bloodlines I think I am down to either Abyssal, Daemon, or Infernal. All look decent, for the most part. Anyone have some thoughts on which would be better?
I talked with my DM/GM and he will not allow the Tattooed Sorcerer and Crossblooded stack (whether it is, or isn't, against the rules). So, thats out.
Looking at bloodlines I think I am down to either Abyssal, Daemon, or Infernal. All look decent, for the most part. Anyone have some thoughts on which would be better?
If Tattooed is a no go I would definitely go Daemon, I'm getting ready to build one soon as a back up character.
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Abyssal I think is better if you stay in sorcerer, since your switching out in 5 levels I wouldn't do it. Daemon and Infernal both look pretty good depending on what you want to do. I do think Daemon is less good with Tattooed as their bonuses won't stack. Infernal is better if you go tiefling because fiendish sorcery is broken. Also, controlling people (and monsters) is thematic for what the diabolist does, which is control devils.
Personally, I'd go Infernal, but I enjoy controlling and manipulating more than blasting. I think WOTW doesn't do a point buy, but you start with a 17 or 18 stat. Assuming 17 a Tiefling with Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Infernal Sorcery would be rocking an 19 DC charm person at level 1, with a +5 to charisma for the purpose of commanding people you controlled. Average NPC Cha. modifier will be between -1 and +1. By level 5 or 6 you should be rocking a +10 or so (Charisma 20 now+ infernal sorcery + Circlet of persuasion + Headband of cha +2 [5+1+3+1 = 10] and npcs Charisma modifier will largely still be in the -1 - +1. I am basing this off AP's and PFS, but I would imagine WOTW won't be too much different. You'll have charm monster pretty close to then too, which for you will probably be stronger than dominate.
Then you take leadership and get an imp companion...oh man, I can see the seething GM hate already! You could throw in animate dead and monster summoning just for good measure. Let the other players at the table control your minions while you just sit back and smile;)
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If Tattooed is a no go I would definitely go Daemon, I'm getting ready to build one soon as a back up character.
Either is allowed separately, but not together. I will probably be using Tattooed Sorcerer.
Personally, I'd go Infernal, but I enjoy controlling and manipulating more than blasting. I think WOTW doesn't do a point buy, but you start with a 17 or 18 stat. Assuming 17 a Tiefling with Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Infernal Sorcery would be rocking an 19 DC charm person at level 1, with a +5 to charisma for the purpose of commanding people you controlled. Average NPC Cha. modifier will be between -1 and +1. By level 5 or 6 you should be rocking a +10 or so (Charisma 20 now+ infernal sorcery + Circlet of persuasion + Headband of cha +2 [5+1+3+1 = 10] and npcs Charisma modifier will largely still be in the -1 - +1. I am basing this off AP's and PFS, but I would imagine WOTW won't be too much different. You'll have charm monster pretty close to then too, which for you will probably be stronger than dominate.
Not sure what it says in the actual book, but we have been told to do a 25 point buy. And this does seem awesome. I have never played an enchantment focused or manipulating character, but it could certainly be interesting.
Then you take leadership
I have next to no experience with the leadership feat. How is this helping with this? This is probably a "well, duh!" answer coming.
Well, leadership is just very powerful. Everything that gives you more action economy is by its nature, broken. The fact you have so many others already to break the economy, a cohort is just icing on the cake.
Really any of them with a +2 to charisma are good, its mostly where you want the other +2 and where you want to eat the -2. Personally, when I only get 2 SP's/level I like to dump int (b/c you only loose 1 SP, there is a minimum of 1/level) and use my FC bonus on SP's to still get 2/level. If your into something like that Div spawn is a great choice, as the additional -2 will hardly effect you more than you already are. Slightly for a few skill checks that your never going to be good at it anyway, and you can be building with 29 SP's.