Like does it strongly favor dexterity builds over strength or do both work?
Both work. Dexterity does have the same problems of low damage at the early levels that it does for everyone else, if you skip strength entirely.
What weapons fit well with it?
Anything at all. Nothing about Liberator points toward certain weapons.
Is the marshal archetype fit as good a fit with it as it looks at first glance?
Yes, absolutely. If nothing else, the marshal's auras fit nicely with trying to get your allies to fight in close enough formation to make good use of your special reaction.
If you don't use a shield what do you do with your third action most rounds?
Move, Aid, use combat maneuvers (in place of Striking, or with Assurance against weak enemies), intimidate, use Bon Mot if you have a spellcasting ally that uses will saves well, use consumables, possibly parry if your weapon supports it, occasionally take cover if your position supports it, Lay on Hands if it's needed. This list is long, and it's better to decide round by round instead of relying on a routine.
Take what you like about the flavor and go for it.
A lot of the answers to your questions will come from that or from the personality of the PC rather than the class itself. And skills will really depend on the party and the stats you wish to boost.
That said, Champion (of any stripe) does not "strongly favor dexterity builds over strength", yet can do both well. Access to heavy armor & armor specialization are perks that suggest Str more than Dex. Also, Champion has the weakest offense (and best defense!) of any martial character which to me gives Str another point in its favor as it adds damage.
So unless you have a reason not to (and a Finesse Favored Weapon is not enough reason!) then go w/ Str. A ranged PC would want Dex, but your excellent Champion's Reaction requires you to be close to endangered allies which doesn't mesh well with ranged.
I'd start with feats personally, but before knowing what feats will stand out you kind of need to know which type Divine Ally you'd like which in turn depends on if you want to build for offense or defense. Much of that might depend on one's party!
The two strongest options IMO are taking a Reach weapon or a weapon w/ shield. The arguments for both sides go deep, and many people suggest going for a Gnome Flickmace to get the best of both worlds, generally through Unconventional Weaponry (a feat for Humans/Half-Humans) rather than Gnome (because of the Str deficit).
So a solid, no frills build w/ little risk would be some form of human with an 18 Str & Unconventional Weaponry for a flickmace.
Divine Ally remains in the air though I'd favor Shield. Look over the feats which have specific requirements and see which you prefer.
You also need to look at the Champion's Focus Spells. Other than Lay On Hands, I don't like them very much, but if you do want to use any for offense (or Mercy for counteracting conditions) you'll need Charisma.
I'm not a fan of the 2nd level feats so I'd recommend taking a Dedication there either to pick up a cool move or some Cantrips from a spellcasting class. Whether you want to invest a string of feats is a whole 'nother can of worms, but that first feat will nearly always be valuable, whether to grab some skills, some Cantrips, a combat move, or whatever.
Lastly, you'll likely be poor at ranged combat so make sure that's not true for too many of your allies! You can still throw some javelins and interpose yourself as cover for them. If you did pump a mental stat tied to spellcasting, then a ranged Cantrip could do.
So yeah, 18 Str, Dex can be dumped (somewhat, I'd still take it to 18 by highest levels unless you need the boosts elsewhere), Con should be bumped to 18 even sooner, Int gives you little, Wis should hit 18 eventually and is a good prereq for a Cleric MCD, and Charisma matters if you're casting Focus spells at enemies.
Since Str/Con/Wis are the only "must haves" in heavy armor, you can play around with the other stats. This in turn will inform you which skills would be best to bump up to max, though Athletics will be useful for a high Str PC.
I am currently playing a Liberator clad in full plate and using a shield to fight. He works great. I wouldn't worry too much about the build specifics.
I dont know who told you champions don't get as much out of Athletics as other martial classes. The only way that's true is if you assume that the champion is using a shield and a weapon with no maneuver property.
As for other skills, the best advice isn't "pick this skill that's good for a champion", it's "be good at a skill that the other members of your party are bad at, so that you'll be a more effective team.
You already have an idea of what you want.
So something like:
Champion Liberator
Deity Domain
Marshal Dedication
Your Stance of choice
Smite Evil
To Battle
Topple Foe
Is something interesting to make, though Topple foe might crash with the champion reaction, but having an alternative if the creatures are targetting you more than the allies might be cool.
Liberator is all about denying actions to enemies by yoinking their targets out of reach, so if you aren't tied to a weapon by your deity I'd definitely favor a reach weapon. If you're using the boarding pike then you probably do want to skip heavy investment in Athletics - this character could be a good source of charisma skill debuffs, Bon Mot if you've got a caster who favors will saves for example.
Liberator is all about denying actions to enemies by yoinking their targets out of reach, so if you aren't tied to a weapon by your deity I'd definitely favor a reach weapon.
Not sure why your own weapon reach would make any difference to the effectiveness of yoinking enemies targets (your allies) out of harm's way.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Liberator is all about denying actions to enemies by yoinking their targets out of reach, so if you aren't tied to a weapon by your deity I'd definitely favor a reach weapon.Not sure why your own weapon reach would make any difference to the effectiveness of yoinking enemies targets (your allies) out of harm's way.
Well, the point is to make the enemy have nothing to strike after you use your reaction, which is easier with a reach weapon. Going sword and board and positioning to make striking you the only option would also synergize well.
Liberator is all about denying actions to enemies by yoinking their targets out of reach, so if you aren't tied to a weapon by your deity I'd definitely favor a reach weapon. If you're using the boarding pike then you probably do want to skip heavy investment in Athletics - this character could be a good source of charisma skill debuffs, Bon Mot if you've got a caster who favors will saves for example.Boarding pike was just picked because it seemed to fit the pirate aesthetic, I haven't even looked at the mechanics of it. Are there other weapons that fit better with athletics?
The problem with the boarding pike is that it's a 2-handed weapon that doesn't have the trip or grapple properties on it; shove can do work in the right situation, but it doesn't justify being a combat maneuver character unto itself IMO.
If going hard into Athletics is something you want, going with a polearm with the Trip property (like the fauchard) will do you just fine. I prefer to have a hand open for grapples if I'm investing in athletics though because being able to hit both reflex and fortitude is great. Any one-handed weapon would open that up, you only have to worry about maneuver properties if your hands are full.
|
Im trying a Goblin Liberator
Rough Rider to ride a Wolf
Cavalier dedication at level 2, mature at 4, smite evil at 6, nimble/savage at 8.
I have 2 planned builds upon this:
Divine Ally Shield
Use a Lance to have reach and a shield, but 1d6 damage.
Divine Ally Blade
Use a maul to have d12 damage and a better critical specialization
If your mount got attacked you can move it ( and yourself) out of the harm's way. And that's a good reason to have reach.
The downside of the reach, is that if you are not mounted you cant use a shield with the lance.
I don't think that actually works quite the way you have it laid out. The Liberator reaction allows your ally to Step as a Reaction, but Minions don't have a Reaction. So your animal companion can't move itself and you away.
I don't think that actually works quite the way you have it laid out. The Liberator reaction allows your ally to Step as a Reaction, but Minions don't have a Reaction. So your animal companion can't move itself and you away.
The step is free action.
Ah, I misremembered it as saying the ally could Step as a reaction, not as a Free action.
I run a game where my 35-year-old daughter plays a tailed goblin liberator champion with detective background. I don't have her starting stats; instead, I have her current 10th-level stats Str 16, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 14.
To have a Dex 20 now, she started with Dex 18. She never wore heavy armor, because light armor was enough. I believe she started with Str 12. The reason behind the high-Dex build was that we started in Trail of the Hunted, where the party was protecting refugees hiding in the forest from invaders. Thus, Stealth was a vital skill. The party no longer flees their enemies, but they use their high Stealth to ambush them.
She joined the party at 3rd level, so she began with Divine Ally. She chose Steed Ally and asked for an alternative to a mount, since pathless forests were poor places for riding. She wanted a velociraptor and I agreed.
Her plan was that the champion would be defense with Raise Shield and Liberating Step and the velociraptor would be offense with a 1d8+2 jaw attack. It works out well except on long chases where the velociraptor leaves her behind. She also would sometimes leave the velociraptor out of combat and team up with the dual-wield ranger to serve as defense for him. And she likes to serve as bait to lure enemies into an ambush.
Her god is Grandmother Spider. She persuaded me that repairing her shield would count as service toward the cause of a crafting god, so she combines Repair with Refocus. Since the party actively rescues slaves from the invaders, her god is happy with her.