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Of course, being a fantasy setting parallels aren't and shouldn't be 1:1. Making the Mauxi just Fantasy-Nubia would be as reductive as what they were before. But it's a way to reframe them and set them apart from other Mwangi and Garundi.
Agreed; attempting to draw direct ethnic comparisons is kind of futile for Garund as a whole, except for MAYBE Osirion (and even that's a stretch). Holomog, Droon, the Sodden Lands, Mediogalti Island, the Impossible Lands, and most of the Mwangi Expanse defy comparison (in the latter case aspects of central and southeast Africa and coastal West Africa are drawn upon, but that's a rather broad brush for a region about a million square miles in size and the Expanse's history is utterly fantastical). The Golden Road parts of Garund, on the other hand, have some similarities to North Africa, but it's missing any equivalent to Hellenistic or Roman Egypt, Carthage, or the conquest of the Maghreb by the early caliphates; and on the flip side irreligion in Rahadoum, the revival of ancient Osirian culture, and alchemy in Thuvia lack equivalents in the real world.
Thuvia and Rahadoum are especially unique from Earth's history, since adding a conquest by Pharaonic Egypt and subtracting the rule of Arab dynasties changes the game quite a bit. So most of the cultures in Garund aren't really going to perfectly correspond to ones in Africa, even if there are inspirations. That's not meant as a criticism, to be clear; Golarion was not intended to emulate the real world and its history directly and, obviously, it's fantasy. But it does mean that any comparison we make is only ever going to be approximate.
(Well, okay, the Mwangi Expanse mashing together elements from such a huge chunk of "sub-Saharan" Africa does annoy me a bit due to the tendency to lump together those regions in pop culture, but the ship has sailed on that one and the books have come a long way in how they frame the region so I don't wanna complain too much).
Over time I've come to realize that specific fantasy counterpart cultures aren't all that common on Golarion—broadly speaking Avistan is most of Europe, Garund is Africa, Tian Xia is east & southeast Asia, Casmaron is the rest of Eurasia, and Arcadia is the Americas, but when you zoom in more, places based on a specific polity or culture are rarer. In the Inner Sea region, only Osirion, the Lands of the Linnorm Kings, Galt, arguably Taldor, and sort of Qadira and Andoran (and perhaps Cheliax if you treat it as a Western Roman Empire analogue) fit that description.
...woah, sorry for that wall of text! That ended up turning into more of a general ramble about the subject than a response to what anyone was saying, but I wrote all of that, so I might as well post it.
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It’s a smart change, and lets them stay bad guys for both Andoren privateers and Golden Road Firebrands. Plus - Gnoll pirates!
I'm not sure that's the intent - Andoren privateers are effectively pirates, and Firebrands on the high seas are straight-up pirates more often than not. It would seem like the intent would be for the ex-slavers to take up the abolitionist cause. Doesn't make much sense, but also doesn't have to.
I imagine that the recontextualization of piracy in the inner sea is that it's more often than not about base economic interests or nationalism than any sort of actual high-minded ideal.
The question of "what does Andor's navy do now?" is probably best left for whenever we talk about Andor again.
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It’s a smart change, and lets them stay bad guys for both Andoren privateers and Golden Road Firebrands. Plus - Gnoll pirates!I'm not sure that's the intent - Andoren privateers are effectively pirates, and Firebrands on the high seas are straight-up pirates more often than not. It would seem like the intent would be for the ex-slavers to take up the abolitionist cause. Doesn't make much sense, but also doesn't have to.
Andoren privateers are effectively pirates in that privateers have always been state-sanctioned pirates; that’s hardly unique to the Grey Corsairs.
Given that everything in the brief sidebar indicates Okeno’s fleets are raiding merchant ships and not freeing anyone, I’m afraid the back half of your post is yet again trying to imagine the worst possible version of something not in the text. It’s an impulse I don’t understand.
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Forgive me if I'm wrong (my "expertise" mostly has to do with the setting I'm running a game in) but neither the Grey Corsairs nor the Firebrands really give off the vibe of open unabashedly pirates. The Grey Corsairs seem fairly unashamedly focussed on anti-slavery - they might seize the cargoes, sometimes the ships, and put the crews to the sword, but they're in it to liberate people. And the Firebrands seem more of a revolutionary group, encouraging rebellions against tyrants, which also has an ideological basis. Both present an extremely different outlook than the Okena pirates, who (AFAIK) are the classical pirates. I guess the Firebrands are more like the Jack Sparrow to Okeno's Barbossa, with the Grey Corsairs as Norrington?
If the slave trade is on the run in the Golden Road, being driven underground, I could see the Grey Corsairs having to change their tactics accordingly since they'd no longer have plentiful Chelaxian prey and might need to go a bit covert, or even having to get a bit more ambitious to get the results they used to, hitting more direct targets. Eagle Knights were already raiding Osirion's slaver camps (with the tacit approval of the Ruby Prince as long as they hit the Pharaoh of Fangs) and if the official slave trade is banned I could seem them legitimised in some form, diplomatic relations with Andoran normalised since anyone worth the attentions of the Eagle Knights would, by default, be violating the laws of Osirion too.
Meanwhile I could see both Qadira and Osirion coming into conflict with the Firebrands since they're both autocracies with an aristocratic class, albeit the Ruby Prince likes to delegate to the Council of Sun and Sky and Satrap Xerbystes II' foreign policy is severely limited. I would guess the Firebrands would see Qadira as the bigger target, since slavery still isn't illegal despite the efforts of Xerbystes' new wife, and there are preexisting nationalist movements who might be happy to do away with the Satrap if it comes with independence from Kelesh. Especially with a resurgent Taldor, though, internal instability could cascade into international turmoil, which would be an interesting story hook. Plus, AFAIK both Osirion and Katapesh have historically been happy to let Qadira police that part of the ocean, so Qadira might have made some grudges among even the more altruistic crews - I can't imagine the Eagle Knights or Grey Corsairs would be too unhappy to see their trade disrupted if it furthers the cause of Qadiran emancipation, particularly the remaining bound genies and elementals.
Come to think of it, if the elementals are being unbound from the magical workings they were bound to, where are they going? Qadira had embassies from the elemental planes, and Osirion is home to clans of unbound elementals, but what does a free fire elemental in Thuvia do? Does the general theme of emancipation also apply to constructs, since binding some animating force has historically been part of the process of creating them?
^ . . . And at least some Automatons are free-willed beings (and they're far more Construct-y than Androids).
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I feel like a very easy pivot for both the Pharaoh of Fangs and the pirates out of Okeno is a move to kidnapping for ransom, on top of general raiding and banditry. Grabbing wealthy merchants, shaking them down for everything they've got, and then demanding their masters in Katapesh or Qadira pay exorbitant fees to get them back?
Keeps much of their flavor without hitting on a verboten issue, has real historical precedent for pirates in the equivalent region on Earth (Caesar, famously, was ransomed by pirates - he got along well with them despite this, but then had them all crucified once he was free, or so the legend goes), and lets them stay antagonists for their existing foes.
It also makes "renegade Gnoll" PCs a little more palatable - being an ex-bandit fits a hero better than being an ex-slaver.
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...I'll admit, Okeno going pirate has me wondering if my old hopes for Rahadoumi naval adventures might be back on the table. With how prominent the named trade routes have been recently (coverage in the Travel Guide, Blood Lords, and Impossible Lands), we might get a surprising amount of detail on the seas of the Golden Road once it's properly detailed.
Azir hiring privateers to harass Chelish fleets, Osirion patrolling their territorial waters with elemental aid, Katapeshi merchant vessels and smugglers racing to escape pirates (or worse, tariffs!), Qadira inheriting whatever the Kelesh Empire's naval legacy is - there's a lot of potential there, IMO!
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Forgive me if I'm wrong (my "expertise" mostly has to do with the settiCome to think of it, if the elementals are being unbound from the magical workings they were bound to, where are they going? Qadira had embassies from the elemental planes, and Osirion is home to clans of unbound elementals, but what does a free fire elemental in Thuvia do? Does the general theme of emancipation also apply to constructs, since binding some animating force has historically been part of the process of creating them?
This is a interesting question! Without getting into the details of whether elemental spirits are included in the ban on slavery, I just wanted to note that 2e has somewhat blurred the lines on the animating force behind golems. The lore blurb for golems these days implies that the 'traditional' method of binding elemental souls to the vessel is considered vile, or at least unscrupulous, offering a pure positive energy siphon as an alternative.
On the other hand, as far as I know, binding elemental spirits in this manner is primarily a golem thing, rather than a general construct thing (though plenty of other constructs play with the 'soul in a vessel' theme, albeit usually as themselves rather than as a power source.
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Keeps much of their flavor without hitting on a verboten issue, has real historical precedent for pirates in the equivalent region on Earth (Caesar, famously, was ransomed by pirates - he got along well with them despite this, but then had them all crucified once he was free, or so the legend goes), and lets them stay antagonists for their existing foes.
Absolutely agree.
Azir hiring privateers to harass Chelish fleets, Osirion patrolling their territorial waters with elemental aid, Katapeshi merchant vessels and smugglers racing to escape pirates (or worse, tariffs!), Qadira inheriting whatever the Kelesh Empire's naval legacy is - there's a lot of potential there, IMO!
Mummy's Mask mentions the Scorpion Boats of Ipeq, reed galleys in the traditional Egyptian style, with the added feature that they are rumoured to have air elementals magically bound to them to ensure they can get anywhere up and down the river they need to go. I'd love to see the kind of creative stuff you could get with that kind of thing applied to seagoing vessels. The idea of triremes mounted with cannons is extremely cool. The in-universe narrator speculated that Osirion used "captive air elementals," but there's no reason that can't be a misinterpretation from a Varisian visitor to a strange land. I don't imagine Osirion wanting the kind of maritime empire the Ptolemaic Empire was renown for, but at the least a naval base near Totra to protect the Sphinx Delta and another near El-Shelad to protect shipping along the Scorpion Coast would be appropriate.
I do think Rahadoum would love to fill the gap Cheliax is leaving, or at least give it a run for its money, though I can more easily see Thuvia turning to mercenaries on a permanent basis. I imagine the Rahadoumi would rather have something more long term and reliable, and particularly not god-dependent, given how many sailors for hire might revere Gozreh or Besmara. Would be a really interesting prospect, Azir building its own shipyards from scratch, having to hire Chelaxian shipwrights and training its own crews to replace a mercenary flotilla it only reluctantly tolerates, and how those sailors whose legitimate careers are on borrowed time might be making plans for afterward. Meanwhile Thuvia might have to divert some of the money it makes from the Sunorchid Elixir toward hiring some of those crews, perhaps even former pirates looking for a new life once the slave trade and Chelaxian shipping has dried up and without Sargava bankrolling them, and there might be a bit of adjustment going from deep water galleons to shallow water galleys, though perhaps not a whole lot. I don't know if the Pact Masters would be especially interested in having a permanent navy, or spending their money on mercs, but I could certainly see merchant companies or even private merchants paying for their own private escorts, or even the Sarenites and Iomedaeans teaming up with the Grey Corsairs to take to the seas.
And for Qadira, I've always thought it and Taldor have been stealing each others ideas and designs for so long, both with long arcane and martial traditions, that they probably put Byzantine warships that could spit fire to shame. Qadira especially, like Osirion and its Elementals, has Genies that you could do interesting things with. Marids using water to wreck enemy hulls, Efreets setting the wood on fire, Djinni filling the sails and conjuring storms, etc. But given how rarely Taldor and Qadira are actually at war, that massively powerful fleet instead gets used for escort, especially as shipping passes through the dangerous Obari Ocean, perhaps explaining why Osirion and Katapesh were content to leave it to them to patrol the straits.
On the other hand, as far as I know, binding elemental spirits in this manner is primarily a golem thing, rather than a general construct thing (though plenty of other constructs play with the 'soul in a vessel' theme, albeit usually as themselves rather than as a power source.
That actually reminds me that The Grand Bazaar introduces the idea that Osirion, Katapesh and Nex have started using poppets more frequently, especially for menial work, and LOWG mentions briefly the Aluum, construct police for Katapesh's markets. Add to that Rahadoum having plenty of Jiskan ruins and possible researching construct-making to make up for some of the lack of divine magic, and that's definitely something you do could do interesting things with in a proper metaregion setting guide, especially as those constructs become sapient and have to be emancipated or at least paid as free workers.
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I feel like a very easy pivot for both the Pharaoh of Fangs and the pirates out of Okeno is a move to kidnapping for ransom, on top of general raiding and banditry. Grabbing wealthy merchants, shaking them down for everything they've got, and then demanding their masters in Katapesh or Qadira pay exorbitant fees to get them back?
I forgot to add in my last post, if we're swapping slavery for abduction then it would be interesting to swap Eagle Knights for Hellknights. The Order of the Torrent have been on a bit of a resurgence with the success of Ravounel, and might be looking to expand their influence in another region with the Firebrands, who seem pro-Ravounel, and the Grey Corsairs who sound sympathetic to people whose entire deal is rescuing the abducted. It would be a bit difficult, since the scorching heat does some nasty things to people in plate armour, but I can't see the Ruby Prince having any objections. And Northern Garund would finally get some local Hellknight presence.
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I feel like a very easy pivot for both the Pharaoh of Fangs and the pirates out of Okeno is a move to kidnapping for ransom, on top of general raiding and banditry. Grabbing wealthy merchants, shaking them down for everything they've got, and then demanding their masters in Katapesh or Qadira pay exorbitant fees to get them back?I forgot to add in my last post, if we're swapping slavery for abduction then it would be interesting to swap Eagle Knights for Hellknights. The Order of the Torrent have been on a bit of a resurgence with the success of Ravounel, and might be looking to expand their influence in another region. It would be a bit difficult, since the scorching heat does some nasty things to people in plate armour, but I can't see the Ruby Prince having any objections. And Northern Garund would finally get some local Hellknight presence.
The Order of the Torrent could use a little more going on than just “we’re the nice Hellknights who are nearly extinct,” and this is a novel niche that fits their watery theme.
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Meanwhile I could see both Qadira and Osirion coming into conflict with the Firebrands since they're both autocracies with an aristocratic class, albeit the Ruby Prince likes to delegate to the Council of Sun and Sky and Satrap Xerbystes II' foreign policy is severely limited.
Firebrands canonically have no problem whatsoever with either autocracy or aristocracy, especially if an autocrat is, personally, relatively hands-off. One of their major state sponsors has both.
This may or may not be retconned come next March.
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It feels like since the Firebrands are the basic "Chaotic" organization in the Inner Sea, ascribing anything in particular to them seems difficult. Like I'm sure there are all manner of "local friendly autocrat is the lesser evil" types and there are also "No Gods, No Masters" types. Lacking any sort of central organization or membership requirements, the Firebrands are a very big tent.
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It feels like since the Firebrands are the basic "Chaotic" organization in the Inner Sea, ascribing anything in particular to them seems difficult. Like I'm sure there are all manner of "local friendly autocrat is the lesser evil" types and there are also "No Gods, No Masters" types. Lacking any sort of central organization or membership requirements, the Firebrands are a very big tent.
I think people viewing them as a proper organization at all are pretty off-base. A pirate crew seeking to make a name for themselves in the Shackles, a team of anti-Lumber Consortium activists in Andoran, an infamous Ulfen braggart, and a cell of veteran revolutionaries from Vidrian might all call themselves Firebrands, and have remarkably little in common, on top of sharing no kind of "command."
They aren't the Rebel Alliance, with fleets and a ruling council, they're a bunch of people who are all bought in (to wildly varying degrees!) on shared ideals of liberty and daredevil legend-making.
That's a big part of why I've struggled with them, honestly, because that lack of structure makes them really slippery to my brain. I'm hoping the book on them can help me see the light.
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Meanwhile I could see both Qadira and Osirion coming into conflict with the Firebrands since they're both autocracies with an aristocratic class, albeit the Ruby Prince likes to delegate to the Council of Sun and Sky and Satrap Xerbystes II' foreign policy is severely limited.Firebrands canonically have no problem whatsoever with either autocracy or aristocracy, especially if an autocrat is, personally, relatively hands-off. One of their major state sponsors has both.
This may or may not be retconned come next March.
It's probably worth saying that Khemet III, while still a monarch of an unequal nation, is a reformer who massively curtailed slavery within Osirion and formed a new political body to act as the voice of former slaves within his government. He also seems to be interested in treating with elementals and other immortals as equals, rather than just binding them and demanding services.
The man and his country are far from perfect, but he's done a little more for the public good than most of Golarion's monarchs can say. Some Firebrands might look fondly on him for that.
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Meanwhile I could see both Qadira and Osirion coming into conflict with the Firebrands since they're both autocracies with an aristocratic class, albeit the Ruby Prince likes to delegate to the Council of Sun and Sky and Satrap Xerbystes II' foreign policy is severely limited.Firebrands canonically have no problem whatsoever with either autocracy or aristocracy, especially if an autocrat is, personally, relatively hands-off. One of their major state sponsors has both.
This may or may not be retconned come next March.
It's probably worth saying that Khemet III, while still a monarch of an unequal nation, is a reformer who massively curtailed slavery within Osirion and formed a new political body to act as the voice of former slaves within his government. He also seems to be interested in treating with elementals and other immortals as equals, rather than just binding them and demanding services.
The man and his country are far from perfect, but he's done a little more for the public good than most of Golarion's monarchs can say. Some Firebrands might look fondly on him for that.
Khemet III strikes me as a conservative of the Nixonian school - surprisingly progressive, but only because he knows that progress is an unstoppable force and what happens to those who stand in front of it, while simultaneously making as little change as he can get away with. And extremely politically canny, ceding nothing unless it gains him or Osirion something in return. But he pushes his luck - the stuff he's pulling around Sokar's Boil behind Janhelia's back could have...unpleasant consequences if revealed to her. The recent commentary on how Elizabeth II influenced so much behind the scenes while giving the appearance of noninterference, knowing the power of appearing to have little, reminded me of how Khemet treats the Council of Sun and Sky - in theory he's an absolute monarch, but in practice he rules like a constitutional one, leaving most business (and, consequently, the blame for less popular legislation) to the Council. AFAIK, the Laws of Equitable Use were one of the few times he directly intervened.
By contrast, Xerbystes II is a fairly conservative monarch - Xerbystes' nobles council (currently unnamed, other than the Peerless who are neither heriditary nor elected advisors) seems to have a harder time getting the Satrap to agree to their requests, like the Roman Senate trying to pretend they're still a Republic whilethe Emperor is appointing his horse and wrestling gladiators. Unlike Khemet, Xerbystes openly resents his Vizier because the job was imposed to reign his ancestors in. He's been champing at the bit for a "proper" war with Taldor to finally end the "threat" it poses for decades despite that authority residing in the Vizier, and has been extremely slow to reform the slave trade by the standards of the Inner Sea, at least until he married his current wife who has his ear. So it sounds like Firebrands and Grey Corsairs alike have reason to give Qadiran shipping some hassle, even before you factor in that Qadira probably dominates most trade with Casmaron. And if they don't, others will. Taldor has its own problems but it has a reformist monarch and its economic and military fortunes seem to be on the upswing, at least in the short term. Grand Princess Eutropia may not want war, but there are probably plenty of Taldans who do, or at least who would be happy to see Qadira racked by some internal turmoil. And given Osirion's history with its former occupier nation, I doubt the Ruby Prince would authorise anything overt but wouldn't be especially upset by it either, and like the Eagle Knights fighting the Pharaoh of Fangs might be willing to turn a completely deniable blind eye to others' agendas.
In Katapesh we know the Pact Masters make most decisions through their public representative, but it seems like they prefer a terribly laissez-faire approach to government. Thuvia's cities are ruled by the clans, and Rahadoum has a Council of Elders led by the Keeper of the First Law. And all that seems like it's ripe for expansion and evolution - has the Pact Masters' power waned or strengthened since their decision to prohibit slavery? Is the Council of Elders democratic? Just because Rahadoum is secular doesn't necessarily mean they're open to democracy, though I'd assume they would be. What are the complex tribal politics of Thuvia like, especially with the importance of the Sunorchid Elixir auction and how that might affect each city's power as it rotates through?
Impossible Lands also introduced a "new" area, Bhopan (although it may have figured into some Rise of the Runelords lore?). If you wanted to create a new nation, however small, where would you put it to squeeze it in? Could Okeno go independent now that it's going pirate and the Pact Masters are joining the anti-slavery bandwagon? We talked about the Mauxi earlier, do they have an ancestral homeland or a non-territorial government that Thuvia works with?
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Morhek, your posts are consistently a joy to read. Thank you for such insightful stuff always - I’d give you a better reply if I wasn’t already in bed!
Fleshing out the Mauxi kingdom and potentially carving Okeno off from Katapesh proper both feel like very plausible developments. I’ve really grown to crave seeing this whole region get the same love as others have in 2e.
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Thank you so much! I sometimes feel like I'm overly dominating the conversation and that I should rein myself in, and it's nice to hear that people think it's insightful and not annoying.
{. . .}
Khemet III strikes me as a conservative of the Nixonian school - surprisingly progressive, but only because he knows that progress is an unstoppable force and what happens to those who stand in front of it, while simultaneously making as little change as he can get away with. {. . .}
"Nixonian" sounds like he would simultaneously and insidiously throw a wrench into progress . . . now you have me wondering about Khemet III's strategy . . . .
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To be honest the Firebrands are Golarion's Antifa and Anarchists. They make a lot of noise about things, but very rarely actually make a difference.
Most of their victories (outside of being pirates) is related to just being at right place/time rather than any of their own effort.
Ban on RL politics still stands.
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To be honest the Firebrands are Golarion's Antifa and Anarchists. They make a lot of noise about things, but very rarely actually make a difference.
Most of their victories (outside of being pirates) is related to just being at right place/time rather than any of their own effort.
This really isn’t saying anything about the Firebrands, and it’s barely saying anything about real-life politics. We don’t even know *what* the Firebrands’ victories are, so dismissing them feels a little silly.
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One thing I am curious about how the Firebrands book is going to address is that left or pro-liberation causes that have big tents often exhibit a bordering-on-absurd degree of internecine conflict.
Like the Firebrands who want to abolish property probably aren't on good terms with the Firebrands who are literal pirates.
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Ban on RL politics still stands.To be honest the Firebrands are Golarion's Antifa and Anarchists. They make a lot of noise about things, but very rarely actually make a difference.
Most of their victories (outside of being pirates) is related to just being at right place/time rather than any of their own effort.
Just using it as a comparison, not trying to get into politics.
Plenty of people using other political things as even more direct comparisons (see the whole Nixonian thing).
Morhek made a lengthy analysis of an in-setting government and made a fitting comparison; you said “Firebrands are Antifa.” There’s a world of difference.
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{. . .}
Khemet III strikes me as a conservative of the Nixonian school - surprisingly progressive, but only because he knows that progress is an unstoppable force and what happens to those who stand in front of it, while simultaneously making as little change as he can get away with. {. . .}"Nixonian" sounds like he would simultaneously and insidiously throw a wrench into progress . . . now you have me wondering about Khemet III's strategy . . . .
People forget that Nixon was tremendously popular at first, had some genuinely good achievements like establishing the EPA, and privately wanted to restrict the sale of firearms. It all gets crowded out by images of hippies getting shot by National Guard or the headlines of Watergate. For all he's done right. Khemet III still kept trading slaves with Nemret Noktoria where they could look forward to being devoured, and has been building up Osirion's military with no apparent enemy in mind while lying to his closest advisor about investigating the volcano where her home is. I don't know if it's Paizo's intent that the Ruby Prince has some hidden agenda, or whether they're just leaving it open-ended, but there are certainly ways to take him in a very Nixonian direction.
Plenty of people using other political things as even more direct comparisons (see the whole Nixonian thing).
I think the difference between your example and mine is that Nixon has been dead for decades, and his administration's issues are fairly well known and settled, while you're referring to a very current subject which can get...heated. If my comparison violates the forums rules, I sincere;y apologise.
For a more in-universe comparison, I wonder how many people watching the Firebrands stirring up trouble across the Inner Sea are getting flashbacks to Absalom's Virtue Corps, which also thought they were doing good and spreading Absalom's values while the rest of the world saw them as vigilantes, and nervously wondering how long it is before they really kick over the wrong hornet's nest. The last time it happened, Vudra sailed a war fleet through the Obari Strait and seiged Absalom in retaliation. What kind of shoe are the Firebrands waiting for to drop?
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I also want to be clear that those vaunted reforms of the Ruby Prince’s did not abolish slavery, but merely make it non-heritable and primarily used as a state punishment for lawbreaking. “Better than what came before” should not be mistaken for him being some unproblematic hero.
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We don’t even know *what* the Firebrands’ victories are, so dismissing them feels a little silly.
The one time I'm aware of that Firebrands figured in a published adventure - PFS's Revolution on the Riverside - their role was to disown a group of intransigent democrats claiming their mantle in favor of backing an autocratic, albeit popular and laissez-faire, monarch. In other words, flouting one of their few rules in order to do opportunism.
So I'm comfortable writing them off utterly as a useful International until more information surfaces.
Like the Firebrands who want to abolish property probably aren't on good terms with the Firebrands who are literal pirates.
If Paizo canonizes Firebrands who want to abolish property, I will buy a hat and eat it.
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We don’t even know *what* the Firebrands’ victories are, so dismissing them feels a little silly.The one time I'm aware of that Firebrands figured in a published adventure - PFS's Revolution on the Riverside - their role was to disown a group of intransigent democrats claiming their mantle in favor of backing an autocratic, albeit popular and laissez-faire, monarch. In other words, flouting one of their few rules in order to do opportunism.
So I'm comfortable writing them off utterly as a useful International until more information surfaces.
As I've learned to do with your posts, I went looking for the source, and you're leaving out a major detail: the text says the majority in town want the heir on the throne. The Firebrands have every reason to disavow people acting in their name who don't represent the desires of the people they're trying to overthrow the government of.
What rules are you talking about?
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We don’t even know *what* the Firebrands’ victories are, so dismissing them feels a little silly.The one time I'm aware of that Firebrands figured in a published adventure - PFS's Revolution on the Riverside - their role was to disown a group of intransigent democrats claiming their mantle in favor of backing an autocratic, albeit popular and laissez-faire, monarch. In other words, flouting one of their few rules in order to do opportunism.
So I'm comfortable writing them off utterly as a useful International until more information surfaces.
As I've learned to do with your posts, I went looking for the source, and you're leaving out a major detail: the text says the majority in town want the heir on the throne. The Firebrands have every reason to disavow people acting in their name who don't represent the desires of the people they're trying to overthrow the government of.
What rules are you talking about?
I left out nothing, I said "popular."
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How is it any kind of betrayal to not want people causing unpopular regime change in your name? A revolution without popular mandate is just interventionism, something I can imagine "real" Firebrands not wanting associated with them.
If so-called Firebrands aren't just enemies of tyranny, but self-appointed rabble-rousers trying to knock over whatever governments they can find, then the Firebrands are swiftly going to be kicked out of every single nation in the Inner Sea. As they're idealistic wannabe heroes and not Galtan militant ideologues, them wanting distance from the efforts in that scenario doesn't read as contradictory to me at all. Neither Ravounel nor Vidrian was won by outsiders kicking down the old states on behalf of the locals.
For a more in-universe comparison, I wonder how many people watching the Firebrands stirring up trouble across the Inner Sea are getting flashbacks to Absalom's Virtue Corps, which also thought they were doing good and spreading Absalom's values while the rest of the world saw them as vigilantes, and nervously wondering how long it is before they really kick over the wrong hornet's nest. The last time it happened, Vudra sailed a war fleet through the Obari Strait and seiged Absalom in retaliation. What kind of shoe are the Firebrands waiting for to drop?
I'll fully confess to not retaining much of the Absalom book, and had somehow missed the note on the Virtue Corps entirely; what a fascinating detail, and clear bit of commentary! Between that and poor Galt, as well as Andoran's fondness for foreign misadventure, and I imagine a lot of people in the Inner Sea get itchy when strangers start talking about revolution and democracy around them.
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Threw together a tiny Pantheon for three Egyptian/Kemetic/Osirian deities who historically shared a role, and who are also very dear to my heart. I hope folks like!
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How is it any kind of betrayal to not want people causing unpopular regime change in your name?
Advocating for your programme even when it might be unpopular, for the purpose of making it popular before seizing power or for the purpose of seizing power in order to make it popular, is part and parcel of being a political group. Failure to do so, abdicating your programme in the name of what is momentarily popular, is contemptible tailism.
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Remember kids, compromise is an inherent evil--especially if compromise would result in any work actually getting done when you could stick to your guns and decry anything less.
^Scary part is: Over a considerable fraction of the population and a considerable area on Earth, this actually works on a regular basis.
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How is it any kind of betrayal to not want people causing unpopular regime change in your name?Advocating for your programme even when it might be unpopular, for the purpose of making it popular before seizing power or for the purpose of seizing power in order to make it popular, is part and parcel of being a political group. Failure to do so, abdicating your programme in the name of what is momentarily popular, is contemptible tailism.
This is a thread about the Golden Road and we are deep in the weeds on a Society scenario set in the River Kingdoms, but I want to point out that the bolded text here is absolutely not what has happened in that scenario.
These people lack a popular mandate among the very public they supposedly represent; rather than try to convince the people of Artume of their ideology, they want to throw a bloody palace coup - goaded on by the Razmiran agent that’s infiltrated their cell with the explicit aim of destabilizing Artume for his homeland’s benefit. This isn’t an organic rebellion driven by ideals of democracy, it’s a handful of self-appointed vigilantes who are convenient stooges for a hostile neighboring state to weaken them for eventual conquest.
For your usual lines of logic, zimmerwald, I would think you’d be a little more sensitive to the idea of overthrowing a government in the vague name of “democracy.”
All that to say that there’s plenty of reasons one specific NPC in a famously-decentralized organization might not want to claim them, and that they can readily do so without betraying anything they stand for.
If you want to discuss this further, I’d gladly respond to you in a separate thread, but this is starting to look frustratingly like an intentional derail. Please, pull it back to the Golden Road, or at least stop trying to start fights over the ideological purity of pretend revolutionaries.
^Artume already has an interesting history, and this twist makes it even more interesting . . . and familiar . . . .
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Returning to the subject of things we'd like to see worked on or included in a theoretical Golden Road book, I think there's room to start introducing some more steampunk fantasy elements to at least part of the setting. Jistka was known for its construct-making, and I'm intrigued by the idea that really, what is a golem but a steam engine with legs? If you could put golems on wheels, what's stopping Rahadoum beating Numeria or Alkenstar to the punch by inventing the railway, at the very least replacing the horses of horse-drawn mine carts, and then working up to passenger lines across Rahadoum?
And once THAT is established, the only thing stopping a trans-oceanic railroad across Northern Garund is politics - authorisation of Rahadoum's Council of Elders, negotiations with the Thuvian clans, the Yerbira, and the Elemental tribes for permission, access and workmen, and the accession of the merchants who may put a few angry caravaners out of work but stand to make shedloads of money if they can truck a shipment from Azir to Sothis in mere days, rather than months without the instability or tax-evasion accusations that come with teleportation. And even if all that goes through, you then have to protect the railroad workers from attacks by wild animals, Divs, Rovagug cultists and dragons, maybe even some of the towns who stand to lose the business they get from caravans, and then do the same to the engines and carriages once it's done.
And if you don't want to do it with engines, there are other ways. The Lost Omens Travel Guide hints at great sandships that traverse the deserts of Kelesh with lighthouse beacons to guide them, and the Osiriani, Thuvian and Rahadoumi deserts are presumably similar (do they have a collective name, like the Sahara is made up of many smaller ecosystems?) You could even have those caravanners who would be put out of work tinkering their own skimmers, to compete with the magical sand barges built by Rahadoumi wizards (a bit too Tatooine?) and each other?
Maybe it's a little too Eberron-like to start thinking about railways in High Fantasy, though I do think making Rahadoum the source of it would be an interesting twist on the concept, and make it a bigger regional player than just We Hate Gods.
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I agree that seeing Rahadoum shine as the heir to Jistkan artifice would be a real joy! I mentioned upthread the Dead Djinn books and how they revel in a turn of the century thriving Egypt-that-never-was, and honestly might welcome Khemet III fully committing to bringing Osirion into the modern age. Thuvia needs something to spend all its coin on, of course. And I can’t imagine Kelesh proper being anything but thrilled to have the rails come their way! I’d previously shied away from a proposed “build the railroad” AP in Numeria, but it could be a lot of fun across Northern Garund…
Sadly, the Trans-Garundi Railway is probably too advanced for proper Pathfinder, but I’ll take whatever tech they want to stuff into Rahadoum. As I’ve said before, they’re infinitely more interesting if the nation is played as “pro-science” as much or more than “anti-god.”
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And even if all that goes through, you then have to protect the railroad workers from attacks by wild animals, Divs, Rovagug cultists and dragons, maybe even some of the towns who stand to lose the business they get from caravans, and then do the same to the engines and carriages once it's done.
These are railroad barons we're talking about. Workmen are disposable, and can always be replaced.
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I feel like railroad barons are much more replaceable than laborers.
Given that they’re Rahadoumi folks building this hypothetical railroad, they might even have constructs doing much of the work.
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And even if all that goes through, you then have to protect the railroad workers from attacks by wild animals, Divs, Rovagug cultists and dragons, maybe even some of the towns who stand to lose the business they get from caravans, and then do the same to the engines and carriages once it's done.These are railroad barons we're talking about. Workmen are disposable, and can always be replaced.
Sounds like a ready-made villain in a complex situation you could do a lot with.
I feel like railroad barons are much more replaceable than laborers.
As they say, the boss needs you. You don't need him.
Given that they’re Rahadoumi folks building this hypothetical railroad, they might even have constructs doing much of the work.
Imagine being a bandit who thinks hitting the rail workers' supply train is easy pickings, and then the train itself stands up and throws down. That's the kind of weirdness you can get, and it's a little frustrating that it's locked away mostly because Paizo don't want everyone to have laser guns from Numeria. Hence Rahadoum and its Jistkan research being my inspiration.
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Returning to the subject of things we'd like to see worked on or included in a theoretical Golden Road book, I think there's room to start introducing some more steampunk fantasy elements to at least part of the setting. Jistka was known for its construct-making, and I'm intrigued by the idea that really, what is a golem but a steam engine with legs? If you could put golems on wheels, what's stopping Rahadoum beating Numeria or Alkenstar to the punch by inventing the railway, at the very least replacing the horses of horse-drawn mine carts, and then working up to passenger lines across Rahadoum?Here's what would be holding it up:
- 1. Rust monsters (also a hazard for ironclad ships, since aquatic Rust Monsters have been reported)). Fortunately, some areas of Golarion seem not to have them, but it would be some saboteur could introduce a breeding pair.
2. Desert -- not a good environment for a water-guzzling steam engine. It is possible to operate steam engines in a desert, but this requires expensive infrastructure, and condensers were technologically advanced enough (and bulky and expensive enough) that they never caught on in railways even on Earth.
And once THAT is established, the only thing stopping a trans-oceanic railroad across Northern Garund is politics - {. . .}
Actually, finance is a problem (both private and when trying to get the government to do it). Steam engines entered commercial service on Earth in 1698, and some steam-powered land- and water- craft were built in the 1700s, but they were not commercially successful. When steam-hauled railroads finally did appear, they tended to be built first to move freight out of a mining area(*) and/or between points inland and a seaport, or in some cases between points on waterways to bypass impassable terrain -- this was where investors were initially willing to spend money. Railroads running parallel to a coast or a waterway came later, and some parts of Earth (notably large parts of Africa(**) and South and Central America) still have mainly railroads running out to a coast, when they have them at all. This is because movement of freight by boat tends to be preferred when it is practical -- this holds true to some extent even in modern time, but was much more the case back when land motive power was by animal or steam, both of which were highly inefficient, whereas sea movement could be by sail (even up into the early 20th Century), and even steamships got better efficiency due to the greater ratio of volume to surface area possible on a ship compared to land; meanwhile, for transport on canals, it was possible to get efficient (although extremely slow) operation by using animals (or later sometimes powered vehicles) to pull canal barges. Of course, with northern Garund being mainly desert or semi-desert, canals are going to be hard to implement except in local instances of large river deltas, so sailing in the Inner Sea will tend to dominate East-West movement of freight, although the Chelish control of transport through the Arch of Aroden/Hespereth Strait would provide an incentive for construction of a short land transport route to bypass this. Although Rahadoum may instead decide that since they managed to retake Khari while Cheliax was busy fighting off the Glorious Reclamation, they might have a decent chance to take the rest of Kharijite and then break the Chelish stranglehold on the strait (although unless they can challenge the Chelish Navy, just reconquering their lost land isn't going to be enough to do this).
(*)In this they followed after the pattern of wagonways, which apparently go back to 600 BC but became common in the 1500s, followed by plateways in the 1700s, using animal (or sometimes people) motive power. Wagonways should certainly exist on Golarion, and maybe even plateways in areas not infested with Rust Monsters. This technology would also be easily sufficient for streetcars drawn by animals (usually horses, but in northern Garund camels would be better), although on Earth, these came much later than technological development would have suggested (if you've got what it takes to build and run a wagonway, you've got what it takes to build and run a horsecar line, so presumably social inertia delayed this development on Earth and would probably delay it proportionately longer on Golarion).
(**)Modern Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, and South Africa have the most advanced rail networks in Africa, at least with regard to route layout. Unfortunately, Wikipedia doesn't seem to have a similar continental overview map for South and Central America, so you'll have to go to their Rail Transport by Country page and click on individual countries, and then keep in mind that some of them did modernize their route layouts after the early days (Argentina seems to be the champion), while others have remained more less as in the old days (or maybe added 1 or 2 approximately coast-parallel lines). and some have degenerated to fragmentary lines or even no railroads at all (thus, it is instructive to look at the 1920s maps when those are available).
. . . And now I'm once again wanting a Golarion Modern, with Golarion in general and Cheliax in particular in the equivalent of the 1920s, with Erinyes standing sentinel on severe Art Deco architecture, and canyons of skyscrapers seemingly designed to crush the souls out of those who dare not to bow to the all-seeing power of the State, while yet missing secret rebels who dart furtively through them like rats while dodging both Hellknight motorcades and suspiciously powerful and brazen gangsters. In the Golden Road region, this would instead have the nations of northern Garund trying to modernize while maintaining their sovereignty, with a worried look to their north and northwest as Cheliax finally figures out how to solve the Rust Monster problem for itself (while sending spies to plant Rust Monsters in their neighbors' territory) and masses a truly infernal navy . . . .
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It’s worth noting that Rahadoum is not just a scientific power but also a hub of magical study. The Jistka before them likewise saw the two fields as one, binding planar beings to great constructs. That’s before factoring in Nethys being one of the most popular deities in the region… no great infrastructure work outside of Alkenstar is going to be purely mechanical!
Eberron’s “trains” used magical pathing stones to levitate/guide the cars and bound elementals for propulsion; such a thing really isn’t all that crazy for the magical “tech level” of Garund as we know it, and could definitely be done with a lot of financial backing.