Right, so if I follow the rules from AP#43 (located here), I take a ship (a galley, just for the argument) (oh, and add the ram and castles). The table under animate object says a ship is Colossal, having 13d10+80 HP. So it has 13 HD, meaning the caster's minimum level is 13 and he has to have Craft Construct. To determine reagents cost, I add HD and CP = 13 + 6 = 19 and multiply by 1,000 - total reagents cost 19,000. Add the 30,000 for the galley and the 8,000 for the ram and castles, and I'm looking at 57,000gp to buy a ship that can move itself across the seas at a base speed of 30'?
Based on the numbers crunched for a Colossal object here, the ship would have a Strength of 46, giving it encumbrance levels of: Light= 117,504#; Medium= 235,392#; and Heavy= 353,280#. (using the quadruped multiplier) That lets the galley carry 176 tons - slightly higher than the "150 tons of cargo" in the equipment list. Considering it moves itself and doesn't require as many crew, that makes sense. (but this is a *very* grainy system - *all* Colossal objects can carry the same amount...)
What worries me is that the actual cost of the reagents only half the cost of the basic ship hull. And then I have 6CP to spend on faster movement rates and such... (or the ability to Fly at 30'/clumsy)
(basically, I'm asking "Do I understand this right?")
Right, so if I follow the rules from AP#43 (located here), I take a ship (a galley, just for the argument) (oh, and add the ram and castles). The table under animate object says a ship is Colossal, having 13d10+80 HP. So it has 13 HD, meaning the caster's minimum level is 13 and he has to have Craft Construct. To determine reagents cost, I add HD and CP = 13 + 6 = 19 and multiply by 1,000 - total reagents cost 19,000. Add the 30,000 for the galley and the 8,000 for the ram and castles, and I'm looking at 57,000gp to buy a ship that can move itself across the seas at a base speed of 30'?
Based on the numbers crunched for a Colossal object here, the ship would have a Strength of 46, giving it encumbrance levels of: Light= 117,504#; Medium= 235,392#; and Heavy= 353,280#. (using the quadruped multiplier) That lets the galley carry 176 tons - slightly higher than the "150 tons of cargo" in the equipment list. Considering it moves itself and doesn't require as many crew, that makes sense. (but this is a *very* grainy system - *all* Colossal objects can carry the same amount...)
What worries me is that the actual cost of the reagents only half the cost of the basic ship hull. And then I have 6CP to spend on faster movement rates and such... (or the ability to Fly at 30'/clumsy)
(basically, I'm asking "Do I understand this right?")
I'll just note that unless you spend something on movement, 30 feet a round for a ship is rather slow.
Not really. The description says it does 4mph while being rowed or under sail. The movement and distance chart shows an overland move speed of 4mph to be a base move of 40. And I did point out there were 6CP to spend on increasing base move. Heck, I think I could live with a fleet of self-propelled galleys that were 25% slower than most...especially given what else they could do with 6CP invested...
I would agree on a self propelled ship for 57K, but not a flying one, given that Carpet of flying, 5 ft. by 10 ft. is 35,000 gp
Seems like flying object which could carry 176 tons should be lots more.
Interesting. Using those rules, a CR 7 animated Huge stone statue would cost about half of what a CR 7 flesh golem would cost to create.
Good question, Benchak.
I'm seeing a "school of engineering" that focuses on teaching the Craft Construct feat and associated wizardry...
Prawn, that's part of my problem. Per RAW, it looks perfectly legal.
Couldn't you just add to the difficulty of crafting? That's what they do in Craft Wondrous Items and such. If you have the proper feats and spell completion spells and enough gold, its just a +5 to the DC for each requirement that you do not have.
The caster level still affects the DC, so it would be pretty difficult.
32 caster level
+5 for not having the caster level needed to create the object
...maybe more, brain not worky...
I wasn't able to find whether or not one would need a masterwork item to enchant in the use of the craft construct feat. A masterwork ship instead of a regular ship would increase the price by at least 300gp :P
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6 CP could let you make it an Adamantine Galley or a Mithral Galley that moves at 50 ft. per round, making it 25% faster than normal. Or, using some of the new options in Haunting of Harrowstone, you could do the following:
Sample Galley: 1CP Burn, 2CP Resist 5 Fire, 2CP Ranged Attack, 2CP Iron, 1CP faster. It has AC 20, 151 HP, hardness 10, resist 5 fire, slam +23 (2d8+18+1d6fire), ballista +11 (3d8/19-20) or heavy catapult +11 (6d6), and movement speed 40.
Its CR goes up by +1 for using 2 extra CP, so the sample is a CR 12. CR goes up an additional 1 if you use Mithral (AC 22, hardness 15) or an additional 2 if you use Adamantine (AC 24, hardness 20). Making them out of metal potentially also increases their HP.
Having the Craft Construct feat does not allow one to bypass the caster level requirement for Animated Objects. Theoretically, though, you could bypass it the normal way for Crafting.
Having the Craft Construct feat does not allow one to bypass the caster level requirement for Animated Objects. Theoretically, though, you could bypass it the normal way for Crafting.
Based on RAW, I have to disagree. Craft Construct says nothing at all about the animate objects spell. Of six golems listed in the Bestiary, only 2 require the use of that spell. In fact, a strict reading of the "Animated Object" entry actually implies a caster wanting a permanent animated object can either 1) cast animate object in conjunction with permanency OR 2) via the Craft Construct feat.
The expanded rules for animated objects from AP#43 (available here) include animate objects as a prerequisite, but *specifies* Caster Level required is equal to the object's HD.
I'm willing to bet some of this will be explained/explored in Ultimate Magic.
More than likely. And the Animate Objects is one of the (many) things I'm looking forward to in Ultimate Magic.
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Based on RAW, I have to disagree. Craft Construct says nothing at all about the animate objects spell. Of six golems listed in the Bestiary, only 2 require the use of that spell. In fact, a strict reading of the "Animated Object" entry actually implies a caster wanting a permanent animated object can either 1) cast animate object in conjunction with permanency OR 2) via the Craft Construct feat.
The expanded rules for animated objects from AP#43 (available here) include animate objects as a prerequisite, but *specifies* Caster Level required is equal to the object's HD.
I'd have to partially counter your argument. Because neither Craft Construct nor Animate Objects mention the other as requirements, it would be fair to assume that neither one necessarily bypasses the other. Craft Constructs, on the other hand, states explicitly that you still have to meet the prerequisites of any Construct you create. If a Construct creature requires the Animate Object spell, you need to meet the requirements of the spell to cast the spell (size limit based on caster level). An 11th level Cleric can cast Animate Objects but could not animate a Galley. That same Cleric could go through the process of building an Animated Galley with Craft Constructs, but that isn't the same as bypassing Animated Objects. You can achieve the same goal (a permanent sentient Galley) with Craft Constructs faster, though, so I concede that part of the point. I maintain that it's not a bypass of the spell because if you use the spell, you have to meet the spell's requirements.
Example: You can take a train (CC) cross-country, or you can drive a car (AO) cross-country. The train will be faster because you can sleep while traveling. But if you have to drive to the train station and can't get there any other way, you can't bypass having to drive (AO) by taking the train (CC).
Agree to half-disagree? You're right. It's an either/or question. I'm just saying Or doesn't bypass Either if Either states a requirement for Or. :P
Agree to half-disagree? You're right. It's an either/or question. I'm just saying Or doesn't bypass Either if Either states a requirement for Or.
Oh, absolutely. Who knows - we may both be way off-base. I think what is happening is that we (the entire set of players we, not just you and I we) are attempting (or wildly HOPING) to ascribe an over-arcing system to what is, essentially, an amalgamation. Mr. Jacobs has said Ultimate Magic will bring us *even more* Animated Objects goodness. Perhaps, in doing so, some of our confusion over this will be cleared up.
As it is, apparently, my Wizard is free to design a golem made out of string that doesn't require animate object?
(that actually gives me a very disturbing idea...)
More than likely. And the Animate Objects is one of the (many) things I'm looking forward to in Ultimate Magic.I'm willing to bet some of this will be explained/explored in Ultimate Magic.
It has been explicitly stated that the new Ultimate Magic features new rules for permanent animated objects by way of Craft Construct. These rules will differ from those already shown in other Pathfinder products and modules, however.
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I'm actually interested in playing a Wizard who, at some point in his career, builds himself a little clockwork familiar. There aren't any rules on Clockwork Constructs with the exception of the Clockwork Golem. I was thinking more a smallish Clockwork Spider thing. We'll see if Ultimate Magic helps out at all.
It has been explicitly stated that the new Ultimate Magic features new rules for permanent animated objects by way of Craft Construct. These rules will differ from those already shown in other Pathfinder products and modules, however.More than likely. And the Animate Objects is one of the (many) things I'm looking forward to in Ultimate Magic.I'm willing to bet some of this will be explained/explored in Ultimate Magic.
Very good - I misremembered Mr. Jacobs' exact wording, only that we would get more info on animated objects in UM.