Would it unbalance Undead Templates, if I added their Constitution modifier (before becoming undead) to their Charisma score?

[Reksew_Trebla]

So one grievance I have with undead is how they have no con score. Yeah, I get it, they aren’t alive, but they aren’t dead either. Plus, this unbalances things on its own if they had a particularly high or low con score in life, and an opposite level of low or high cha score. They could go from a lot of hp to barely any, or the inverse could be true, and they go from barely any hp to way too much.

So I had an idea. What if the con modifier, not counting con damage or con drain, and not counting any bonuses that aren’t instantaneous (though some could be allowed, like if they came from a Bloodline, but technically aren’t instantaneous since they can be turned off in an AMF,) was added to the cha score, as a bonus (or penalty if they had a negative con modifier)?

This way, their high or low con score still matters, just not as much since its only the modifier that’s being added to the cha score.

Would this unbalance the undead templates if I did this?

[Sysryke]

I have no idea, but it seems like a solid patch. Do undead get the bonus HP based on size like constructs do? If not, that would seem to be another legitimate fix.

Of course, as I type this, I'm wondering if the argument isn't just to make the beasties tougher, harder to hit, or more regenerative. They aren't truly alive, so there's not much (if any) life force/hit points to them, the challenge is getting past all that undead shell, to the gooey necrotic core of HP they do have.

[Tim Emrick]

I definitely wouldn't employ this change on the mindless undead templates (skeletons and zombies), because they get a set Charisma score, period, and don't retain any class levels or other special abilities from their living form. Their hp are entirely determined on their size and base HD.

Intelligent undead frequently get a bonus to Charisma to make up for the loss of a Con score. Look at the sample vampire in the Bestiary, which is an 8th-level sorcerer, but has over 100 hp--and that's presented as a "typical" specimen. If you built a vampire using a martial class, they would retain their better HD size, but have fewer bonus HP (though that +4 Cha would help offset that some). But that second vampire would still be better suited for close combat than the sorcerer, because they are, after all, a martial--and now they have even better Str and Dex! I think it balances out overall: different builds exploit different parts of the template.

I think it makes more sense to match a template to the kind of base creatures that are best suited to make use of the template's abilities than to try to impose a universal "fix." A martial class ghost is dangerous mainly for getting full BAB vs. touch AC, but they lose any benefit of a Str score, which seriously hurts most of those classes. Meanwhile, a Cha-based spellcaster loses very little by becoming a ghost, but instead gains an immense boost. In contrast, a skeletal warrior only gets bonuses to Str and Dex, so it makes sense to apply that template to martial characters who are already heavily invested in those ability scores.

Finally, it makes a great deal of sense for undead formed from charismatic creatures to be tougher to destroy, because it's the force of their corrupted personality that's animating them, not the toughness of their rotting flesh. Why shouldn't the villains who frightened their foes the most in life (good Cha, high Intimidate, etc.) be the most terrifying undead of their type after death? That's a hell of a lot of ego to put down, and their first death obviously didn't get the job done.

[Thread Necromancers' Guild]

We're just sexy, okay? Don't be so narrow-minded.

[Azothath]

yes

[Algarik]

Might be a bit late, but imo, the best way to rebalance them would be to give them a constitution score and get rid of the rule that give them charisma modifier to hp inteast of con. It gets rid of some balance problem and the sillyness of zombies having better charisma score than a third of the adventurer population. (Then i guess that their low charisma scores are warrented given what some of them do...) It also let you create gigantic abomination-type undead ala WoW without gifting them with godly charisma.

If we still want to keep some undead as beefy as before because ''Undeath gives unnatural resistance'' we can give some particular type of undead abilities that let them trade their constitution score for their intelligence, wisdom or Charisma. For exemple, a lich could have a ''Mind Over Matter'' feat/Special ability that let them use their spellcasting ability modifier instead of their normal con. Still we gotta keep in mind, even without the HP buff, undeath is still attracting as it makes someone immune to so many conditions. Back in 3.5, undead just had straight d12 hit die with no modifiers and most of them were still resiliant and scary.

It would require a bit of work to rework all existing undead, but it can be a good patch for undead player character.