Long time lurker here, making my first post because I cant find anything on this, because its absurd.
I've been GMing for about 4 yrs now, and we started ROTRL Burnt Offerings in spring of 2020. My party is currently halfway through Skinsaw, (we only play for a bit in the spring/summer), and this ENTIRE time, since starting Burnt Offerings, I've had to endure this weird issue.
My entire group of players, HATES, Belor Hemlock. A lot. And I dont understand it.
I generally try to roleplay him as a tough but courteous and professional law man. He lets them know whats going on around town and ASKS them to investigate (not orders them, asks them). However nonstop, they seem to want to heap disrespect on him for this, which I find obnoxious and really unpleasant. They argue with him about whats illegal for example, he once told them they couldnt legally keep Habe's 41 gold after they arrested him (Habe complained to Hemlock since he saw them steal it), and they bickered with Hemlock for almost an hour over said 41 gold. Their reasoning was "This guys evil, we should get his stuff, this is b%!~%%&+" Hemlocks reasoning was that Habe's supposed to get his stuff back once hes served his time.
And that was just today. When he tells them about a threat to the town, they sigh exasperatedly and sometimes try to provoke him. One player today actually said "I roll my eyes" as he was talking to them about who he thought the skinsaw killer might be. When theyre out and about, they often comment that "the sherriff never does anything, we do all the work" even tho I've said many times that hes staying behind to watch the town against the goblin/ghoul forces amassing in the area. Theyve also decided on their own that hes obese? I guess? Despite my descriptions to the contrary?
My issue is that I dont really want to roleplay an npc thats just getting passive-aggressived to his face nonstop, or argued with nonstop, and I just dont understand why its happening enough to resolve it. They dont act this way toward other npcs like Vorvashali Voon or Ameiko. Its only Hemlock. And again, he hasnt done anything to slight them or be rude to them in any way. The closest he got was not condoning their theft from Habe, but he was calm and patient about it, saying simply, "Im sorry, but the man does still have rights, we'll have to return his posessions Im afraid."
Thoughts on how to foster some damn respect for the man that chased down the Chopper? Because for how often he has to interact with them to progress things, Im leaning towards replacing him or just making him a level 18 fighter that beats them down if they talk smack unprovoked.
Absolutely sick of roleplaying a punching bag.
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Unless you've got a particular attachment to RPing Hemlock, I'd recommend just having the party's 'questgiver' as it were not be a member of the town guard. Ameiko's a good one; she's the one who got my party through Book 2, and I don't think they even spoke to Belor the whole book after Session 1 (when one of them was questioned about Katrine's murder).
That said, absolutely don't level up Belor to bully your party. On top of confirming everything they already believe about him, it would extend the antagonism between PCs and an NPC to antagonism between you and your players.
If the party is shirking the law, but protecting the town at the same time, I'd recommend Belor talk with them and say he's not interested in continuing their partnership to protect the town, but if they want to cooperate with the city guard, his door is open. Then, whoever the party naturally goes to to bounce ideas off of, or whoever else gets wrapped up in this ghoul situation, have them help the party instead.
I think there's probably two reasons behind the trouble you're having, incidentally.
2. Some groups don't trust law enforcement, especially when that law enforcement is strictly dedicated to the law. This can be for a number of reasons, but one of the most common is because people feel PCs ought to be, and often are, above the law. This is the issue I had.
In my game, for instance, Belor tried multiple avenues to prevent the party from using resurrection magic to restore Nualia to life, and then to prevent them from returning Nualia to town, and then from influencing the city's politics (to support Mokmurian). Of course, the party didn't take kindly to this, and ultimately told him that if he escalated his resistance further, he'd break before they'd bend.
Either problem could be solved by having someone not involved in law-enforcement (and thus without the duty to personally intervene) who nevertheless wants to help Sandpoint help out the party by giving them tips, rather than by having an authority ask favors of them.
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just out of interest: how does your party react to jubrail vhisky?
as I see it, you have two options: either lean into it and transform hemlock into an antagonistic force - in which case there are plenty of npcs that could fill the void of the questgiver. and making him an obstacle that needs to be solved might turn into a chance to give some party members huge responsibilities later on, as they would have to step up and take over law enforcement in sandpoint themselves.
the other option is to have a talk with your players and simply ask them, why they feel this way about hemlock
Yall make some good points. Most of my group is, lets say politically involved in police reform, and its very possible they are projecting that into "all law enforcement must be detested." Or it could be that they want to be above the law, no matter how petty the pay-off. I think i will try replacing him with Jubrayl and see how that goes, I havent had the need to use Jubrayl yet so itll be a clean slate. Since im not really too sure if that was the reason though, its possible theyll send the same attitude Jubrayls way. But I'll see, for science.
And believe me, i've brought it up out of character. I often comment things like "The mans just doing his job, he likes the group," and "Hes just a lawman following laws, why all the outrage?" It falls on deaf ears though, they just rage about how he should be doing more for them.
Swapping him with Jubrayl for the lead quest-giving role will at the very least put them on notice that mistreating people can damage alliances.
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I guess you could also just put more focus on what Hemlock is doing in his free time. Like do they even know he is shoanti with estranged relations with his brother? It's pretty clear they are projecting some sort of stereotype onto him, especially if you have shown them his full body picture from Sandpoint Campaign Setting book.
I also think you should be more explicit with group than just side commenting on it. Like if they refuse to listen to GM trying to talk to them, like you should explicitly be like "okay party, serious talk, what is up with this? Its really distracting for me and I'm getting sick of it"
There is also another reason I'm bit confused by multiple people's perception of Hemlock in thread...
...Like yeah Hemlock is guard captain but, uh... He is also chaotic good. Would he really be THAT strict about the law in either case?
(how would they know that Habe is evil anyway when he is strictly speaking lawful neutral?)
Oh I was playing Hemlock as neutral good, i thought it would be a better fit for his role in the story.
As for Habe, its not so much that they thought he was literally evil as it is that they thought he was "bad" or a criminal or whatever.
Has Hemlock been doing anything notable in the meantime? The PCs have the idea that they're doing all the work while Hemlock sits on his backside, so demonstrate that they're wrong. Have him deal with some goblins or Ulfen raiders or a house fire or something while they're busy elsewhere.
Has Hemlock been doing anything notable in the meantime? The PCs have the idea that they're doing all the work while Hemlock sits on his backside
Well actually he did mention to them at the start if his last conversation that he had killed a handful of ghouls trying to sneak into town while they were gone, so thats something. Didnt change their behavior though.
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There is also another reason I'm bit confused by multiple people's perception of Hemlock in thread...
...Like yeah Hemlock is guard captain but, uh... He is also chaotic good. Would he really be THAT strict about the law in either case?
Ah, lol. My game doesn't have alignment, so I didn't really consider that. Given that all of my party's favorites (Shalelu, Ameiko, Aneka) were relatively uninterested in laws or any concept of stability, I had the old guard of town representing 'law' within Sandpoint, with Belor somewhere in the middle. They ultimately weren't all that interested in a middle ground though, and basically only took Belor's word for things if Ameiko backed them up (and sometimes not even then - they wanted Calistria's church in town regardless of what anyone said).
And re: Habe, I think a lot of people would consider Habe's actions 'evil' regardless of his alignment. That being a justification to take his money though? That's just 'but we're the PCs!' mentality.
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That is another thing I thought of you could consider if you want to only try influencing players in game:
Have other npcs react to Belor or expressing their opinions on him, whether agreeing or disagreeing with players. Like if nothing else, it will have them understand what is overall opinion on character rather than just party's opinion
Has Hemlock been doing anything notable in the meantime? The PCs have the idea that they're doing all the work while Hemlock sits on his backside, so demonstrate that they're wrong. Have him deal with some goblins or Ulfen raiders or a house fire or something while they're busy elsewhere.
Also remind them that this is a GAME that they are PLAYING and if they want the NPC to do ALL THE WORK, then you can just stop playing TTRPGs and go play Catan or another game since they don't want to do any adventuring apparently. My players were doing this alot - literally screaming at NPCs because they 'hated a lazy NPC' - exact words from one of my players. Like, if an NPC didn't provide this one player with EVERYTHING he asked for - and he ask for alot - he immediately disliked the NPC. Not in character. As a player. I stopped that campaign and next session brought a couple of board games over, told them that the NPCs saved the day, the campaign is over, and I didn't DM for like a month. After that they got the hint. But mind you, I could do this cause I was DMing for a group of friends too.
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My players disliked Belor so much they thought he might have something to do with all the murders. It was for similar reasons: it seems like he's not doing anything useful in the AP and he's a lousy sheriff.
What helped in my case was a bit counter-intuitive: giving them a badge that said they were on a mission for the sheriff of Sandpoint. In the meantime Belor would go look for other recruits, or train the guards in case there would be a ghoul or goblin attack. But the badge helped make the relationship more clear: the PCs were on an official mission, rather than doing this guy a favour. In later books they just took the role of independent investigators but for book 2 it helped them being able to say they were on official business everywhere.
Also remind them that this is a GAME that they are PLAYING and if they want the NPC to do ALL THE WORK, then you can just stop playing TTRPGs and go play Catan or another game since they don't want to do any adventuring apparently. My players were doing this alot - literally screaming at NPCs because they 'hated a lazy NPC' - exact words from one of my players. Like, if an NPC didn't provide this one player with EVERYTHING he asked for - and he ask for alot - he immediately disliked the NPC. Not in character. As a player.
Ugh I hate that, yeah theyve been doing that exact thing a lot, mostly toward Hemlock. Literally thousands of times by now. Theyre fairly green so maybe they dont understand how ridiculous it sounds to the DM, but ive been getting more and more explicit to them about how little sense it makes.
"So... you want Hemlock to handle it himself? ...Okay, I guess the adventures over then. He does so.""We were just jokin mate"
"But then what are u saying? are u saying you want him to come with you? If he does everyone would get a little less xp"
"No that sucks why would we want that"
"Then what do you WANT" O.O
What helped in my case was a bit counter-intuitive: giving them a badge that said they were on a mission for the sheriff of Sandpoint.
Oh my hemlock gave them an official letter saying they had been deputized, but they dint care, still hate him. Am i crazy, i could have sworn that was instructed to the DM in the module, maybe im wrong and i came up with it on my own
I'd recommend two solutions.
As others have stated, simply removing Hemlock from his heavily player-facing role and replacing him with an NPC the players like more (since it sounds more like an issue of players collectively not liking the NPC, not the characters). There's nothing about Hemlock that makes him particularly important to the the AP, transitioning his role to another NPC should be pretty easy.
Otherwise, it sounds like you may need to have a true heart-to-heart with your players. Go to them as a group and explain that their antagonism towards one specific NPC is affecting your enjoyment of the game. Your enjoyment of the game as a GM is just as valid as their enjoyment as players. Go into detail about what it is they are doing that is frustrating you, and have them explain why they're acting that way. In detail. Not "he just doesn't do enough". Details. What is it that he's not doing? Why are the instances you've shown of him accomplishing something not enough?
Just make sure the discussion is civil and that it isn't about throwing blame around for the situation. Talk about it and come up with a solution that works for everyone at the table. Whether that's removing Hemlock, or adjusting the way you and/or the players handle situations with him, or something else entirely.
As others have said, I'd use another NPC like Ameiko give out quests.
I would still build up Belor's character using NPCs the party respects however as a last ditch effort. For instance, if they really like Ameiko, Savah (she was another former adventurer in my game and a hit with the group), Niska, or even a shadier NPC, etc. Id have them approach the group at one point at the Lucky Dragon or on the street and voice a little disappointment at their treatment of the Sheriff and talk up Belor's exploits like chasing down the Chopper, dealing with other threats like bandit reports just outside the town, humanoid sightings nearby, and to top it all off... he's in charge of safety in Magnimar's largest holding outside of that major city.
He's undermanned at the time of the campaign, is dealing with red tape from Magnimar all the time with requisitions etc.
Further, every time Shalelu shows up let them notice that she greets him with great respect as well. I'd also set a small scene and have Belor at the Lucky Dragon one night at a table by himself after hours, pouring over some town paperwork when the PCs are there. When Shalelu shows up, she nods to them (if they know her by then) but walks over to Belor with a warm hug and greeting and sits with him for a bit before heading over to them later.
She could also voice some displeasure with the party's disrespect if she hears of his mistreatment.
Beyond that, your players just refuse to leave real world problems outside of the game. Just go with option A above, and try a new quest giver.
Good luck.
Nice, good ideas! Im not sure theres any npc currently that theyre super a fan of tho, sadly. Maybe Vorvashali or Jargie Quinn, I'll have to really think. But i get what youre saying. I'll give it a try, since it sounds like a fun tactic tbh
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I had a similar issue, though with one player who was playing someone who was fast and loose with laws (but still good). I found the way to turn the PCs to support him was to have the Scarnettis up their powerplays and try to oust Hemlock. They truly hated the Scarnetti family (with the above player being an illegitimate kid brother of the head of the Scarnetti family). So while they "hate" Hemlock, they refused to allow Scarnetti to get rid of him or replace him with someone who'd allow Scarnetti corruption to continue.
Basically, the Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend sort of thing.
So start playing up how the Scarnettis are scum, have them start badmouthing Hemlock, make sure the Scarnetti plots negatively impact the players, and you'll see them supporting Hemlock even if they "hate" him.