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1) It appears as if a Shuriken and a Long sword both cost 40 GP to make cold iron? And a single arrow costs 4GP?
Yes on both points. You would have to pay more to fire arrows from a level 9+ weapon though.
2) Is it the case that all arrows are destroyed after or do they just become non-magical. I'm finding the errata hard to parse. I'm also struggling with what is destroying an adamantine arrow head (if in fact it is destroyed).
Yes, using ammunition destroys it.
3) If you use a magic bow to fire a magic arrow, you generally get the effects of both.
No, when you fire magical ammunition, you gain the effects of the potency and striking runes, but nothing else unless that specific ammo says you can.
4) You have very little motivation to get higher-grade materials for your magic arrows because you generally aren't putting property runes on ammunition (cost too much).
You can't put property runes on ammo as far as I can tell. Magic Ammo is its own thing.
5) With a returning rune you could throw the same weapon a lot of times in a round (3 at least, more if you have some way to attack twice with one action or something).
Yes, what's the point?
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If I've got that right, low-level archers *really* struggle with having arrows that do the right type of damage--they just cost too much for only being able to make 10 attacks. High-level ones can pretty much use the low-grade materials (and so have plenty of arrows) because they don't need the higher grade (generally).
Thoughts?
Special Materials are important sure, but it's not the end all. There's magical ammo that does other damage types that allow you to trigger weaknesses. There's also blanches that let you apply a special material to 10 mundane arrows for pretty cheap.
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I'm struggling to find anything about how bows and arrows interact. Any cite wrt the level 9+ bow not working with low-grade cold iron arrows would be very welcome!
Precious Materials rules. If you use low grade ammo on a bow that's over level 8, the ammo will not receive the benefit of any runes above that level. For example:
"Low-grade items can be used in the creation of magic items of up to 8th level, and they can hold runes of up to 8th level."So a holy longbow wouldn't make the arrows holy? Could you cite that from something? Sorry, new to everything and I'm finding the rules hard to navigate.
Weapons will confer their runes onto non-magical ammo just fine, but magical ammo will overwrite the runes. I linked the rules for Magical Ammo above.
"When using magic ammunition, use your ranged weapon’s fundamental runes to determine the attack modifier and damage dice. Don’t add the effects of your weapon’s property runes unless the ammunition states otherwise—the ammunition creates its own effects."| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm struggling to find anything about how bows and arrows interact. Any cite wrt the level 9+ bow not working with low-grade cold iron arrows would be very welcome!Precious Materials rules. If you use low grade ammo on a bow that's over level 8, the ammo will not receive the benefit of any runes above that level. For example:
"Low-grade items can be used in the creation of magic items of up to 8th level, and they can hold runes of up to 8th level."
I don't see how that states that you need high grade arrows for higher level bows. Ammuntion doesn't hold runes, the weapon does. Never is it stated that the runes on a weapon are somehow transferred to the ammunition. In fact, if that were the case, runes would become useless since both weapon potency and striking runes have the "etched onto a weapon" Usage line, and pieces of ammunition aren't weapons, meaning the runes would be deactivated due to not being etched on the correct type of item.
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For game balance reasons, you can't spend 4g per arrow at level 16 when your fighter friend spent 9900g on their longsword. That's 2475x more expensive than an arrow. If that were the case, archers would be even more overpowered than they are now. And don't get me started on guns.
The whole point for needing more pure materials at higher levels is because at higher levels 40g is nothing, so they wanted special materials to be an actual investment. If you just ignore that for ammo, then what's the point of forcing it upon those who don't use ammo?
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Yeah... no, I don't agree with CK here, nothing about the SM rules seems to communicate that your attacks don't benefit from higher-level runes if you fail to have properly expensive ammo. Maybe you could link some rule I overlooked regarding how ammo and ranged weapons interact within the scope of runes and special materials that I've missed?
Also, why exactly are people getting so caught up on needing special materials for arrows now? What's the meme here guys, does everyone here really expect martial characters to have one or more backup weapons of each kind of special material just so they can trigger weakness or something?
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Yeah, the rules say that the grade of special material is based on the level of the magic item. The arrow isn't a magic item and is level 0... As such, it's a non-factor in your ranged weapon attacks: Low grade arrows work JUST fine with a 20th level bow.
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A Low Grade Cold Iron Arrow is actually a level 2 item. They follow the same rules as standard weapons.
If an arrow benefits from a rune, it needs to be of a material that can benefit from it. You can totally fire a low grade arrow from a +3 Major Striking Holy bow, but a Low Grade arrow can't benefit from any of those runes, so it just does 1d8 damage.
Does one of the iconics have a Striking bow/crossbow so we can check their inventory's arrows/bolts?
(Not that iconics are without error.)
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I think always having special material for one's ammo is a carryover from PF1 where you expected to have the best tool for the job via one's arsenal of arrow types. This is hardly important in PF2 at lower levels where the Resistances & Weaknesses are 2 or 3, though from mid-highest levels it can be a big difference, and worth the expense even if it's much more than it had been in PF1.
So, that's a funny one. The rules don't explicitly lay out needing higher grade ammunition, but (in addition to not passing the "too good to be true" smell test at very high levels, we do have some other indication of intent in the Cold Iron Blanch.
Cold Iron BlanchItem 3+
UncommonAlchemicalConsumablePrecious
Source Pathfinder Society Guide pg. 104
Usage held in 1 hand; Bulk L
Access Member of the Pathfinder Society.
Activate Two Actions InteractYou can pour a vial of this dark liquid onto one melee weapon, one thrown weapon, or 10 pieces of ammunition. When used on a melee or thrown weapon, rather than ammunition, the blanch lasts for the listed duration or 10 successful Strikes, whichever comes first. When you use it on ammunition, the blanch is expended on a given piece of ammunition after firing it, whether it hits or not. A cold iron blanch contains small amounts of alchemist's fire, so it must be used all at once; an opened vial ignites to melt the cold iron onto the weapon and is quickly consumed. The weapon or ammunition counts as cold iron instead of its normal precious material (such as silver) for any physical damage it deals, if applicable.Cold Iron Blanch (Lesser)Item 3
Source Pathfinder Society Guide pg. 104
Price 10 gp
Bulk L
The blanch provides low-grade cold iron, so you can use it on a magic weapon up to 8th level, or ammunition for such a weapon. It lasts for 1 minute.Cold Iron Blanch (Moderate)Item 9
Source Pathfinder Society Guide pg. 104
Price 140 gp
Bulk L
The blanch provides standard-grade cold iron, so you can use it on a magic weapon up to 15th level, or ammunition for such a weapon. It lasts for 10 minutes.Cold Iron Blanch (Greater)Item 16
Source Pathfinder Society Guide pg. 104
Price 1,700 gp
Bulk L
The blanch provides high-grade cold iron, so you can use it with any magic weapon. It lasts for one hour.
The earlier-published silversheen had no such provision, though. I believe that the intent here is more likely to be cold iron blanch trying to fix a mistake than cold iron blanch being a new mistake, but that's my reading in intent, not a guarantee.
Edit: Iconic pregens won't help here, since they don't exist at high enough level to have weapons that would be impacted.
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None of the Iconics have any special materials on them afaik.
Weaknesses are a big deal at high levels. A Balor Demon has Weakness 20 Cold Iron. If you want to trigger that with your +3 Major Striking Holy Longbow, you either need to spend 9000g on 10 arrows, or 1700g for a Blanch.
Also graystone, Themetricsystem, please look at the rules for Blanches. It states: "The blanch provides low-grade cold iron, so you can use it on a magic weapon up to 8th level, or ammunition for such a weapon."
Yes, Merisel at level 5 has a +1 Shortbow with NORMAL level 0 Arrows and the statblock includes the +1 Item Bonus which would be impossible to add to any non-special material Arrows under this interpretation.
What conflict are you talking about? Nothing here conflicts with applying runes to non special material ammunition .
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Yes, Merisel at level 5 has a +1 Shortbow with NORMAL level 0 Arrows and the statblock includes the +1 Item Bonus which would be impossible to add to any non-special material Arrows under this interpretation.
No one is talking about standard ammo, we're talking about special materials. Standard Ammo works just fine.
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CRB pg.578
Crafting with Precious Materials-
“Low-grade items can be used in the creation of magic items of up to 8th level, and they can hold runes of up to 8th level. Standard-grade items can be used to create magic items of up to 15th level and can hold runes of up to 15th level. High-grade items use the purest form of the precious material, and can be used to Craft magic items of any level holding any runes. Using purer forms of common materials is so relatively inexpensive that the Price is included in any magic item.”
This is the only place I can find any rule that has any support for this item level requirement...and it’s pretty tangential. Where does it explicitly say that a cold iron level 2 item cannot be used in a +2 greater striking bow and get the benefits of the runes?
I already wrote that there is no explicit statement of that.
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CRB pg.578
Crafting with Precious Materials-
“Low-grade items can be used in the creation of magic items of up to 8th level, and they can hold runes of up to 8th level. Standard-grade items can be used to create magic items of up to 15th level and can hold runes of up to 15th level. High-grade items use the purest form of the precious material, and can be used to Craft magic items of any level holding any runes. Using purer forms of common materials is so relatively inexpensive that the Price is included in any magic item.”This is the only place I can find any rule that has any support for this item level requirement...and it’s pretty tangential. Where does it explicitly say that a cold iron level 2 item cannot be used in a +2 greater striking bow and get the benefits of the runes?
The level of the cold iron item has no berring, only the grade. It just so happens that Low-Grade Cold Iron weapons are level 2. A good comparison would be Standard Grade Cold Iron vs Adamantine. The Cold Iron is a level 10 item, and the Adamantine is level 11, but since both are "Standard" they can both hold runes up to level 15.
As you just posted, Low Grade cold iron can only hold runes up to 8th level. When you fire an arrow, all the runes on the bow are applied to the arrow for that strike. Therefore, if the arrow is not of the appropriate grade, it wouldn't be able to hold the appropriate runes and thus not gain the benefits of them.
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A Low Grade Cold Iron Arrow is actually a level 2 item. They follow the same rules as standard weapons.
If an arrow benefits from a rune, it needs to be of a material that can benefit from it. You can totally fire a low grade arrow from a +3 Major Striking Holy bow, but a Low Grade arrow can't benefit from any of those runes, so it just does 1d8 damage.
Nowhere does it state any of this [other than level]. Second, arrows aren't weapons and are never said to be treated as such: they are mentioned in the same sections as weapons but that alone doesn't mean that they follow the same rules. For instance, NOWHERE does it say anything about runes and arrows minimum requirements as arrows are not weapons.
As to Cold Iron Blanch, I'm not really seeing the intent or 'too good to be true' compared to actual ammo. If it was meant to stealth errata ammo, it does a poor job as it just shows the blanch can't interact with certain levels items. As to to good, the blanch allows you to change the special material of your arrow/weapon on the fly: For instance, your silver Ghost Ammunition can be switched to cold iron. It also leads to the odd situation where you can put a low level blanch on an 19th level arrow [arrows aren't weapons] where you'd need high-grade cold iron if you used the material. It's somehow only works or doesn't depending on which bow you fire it out of. :P
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A Low Grade Cold Iron Arrow is actually a level 2 item. They follow the same rules as standard weapons.
If an arrow benefits from a rune, it needs to be of a material that can benefit from it. You can totally fire a low grade arrow from a +3 Major Striking Holy bow, but a Low Grade arrow can't benefit from any of those runes, so it just does 1d8 damage.
Nowhere does it state any of this [other than level]. Second, arrows aren't weapons and are never said to be treated as such: they are mentioned in the same sections as weapons but that alone doesn't mean that they follow the same rules. For instance, NOWHERE does it say anything about runes and arrows minimum requirements as arrows are not weapons.
As to Cold Iron Blanch, I'm not really seeing the intent or 'too good to be true' compared to actual ammo. If it was meant to stealth errata ammo, it does a poor job as it just shows the blanch can't interact with certain levels items. As to to good, the blanch allows you to change the special material of your arrow/weapon on the fly: For instance, your silver Ghost Ammunition can be switched to cold iron. It also leads to the odd situation where you can put a low level blanch on an 19th level arrow [arrows aren't weapons] where you'd need high-grade cold iron if you used the material. It's somehow only works or doesn't depending on which bow you fire it out of. :P
Well nowhere does it state that ammunition takes on the runes of a weapon normally, now does it? Yet we all agree that's how they work.
Also why do you keep saying ammo isn't a weapon? If ammo wasn't a weapon it wouldn't be in the "Ranged Weapons" section of the book, nor would it be mentioned in the "Precious Material Weapons" section. Ammunition is an extension of a ranged weapon. You need both parts for the weapon to be "whole", so only makes sense that you would follow the same rules for both parts of the weapon when it comes to Runes.
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Well nowhere does it state that ammunition takes on the runes of a weapon normally, now does it? Yet we all agree that's how they work.
Yeah, no. We "agree that's how they work" because the rules tell us that's how they work.
Some entries in the ranged weapons tables are followed by an entry indicating the type of ammunition that weapon launches. The damage die is determined by the weapon, not the ammunition. Because that and other relevant statistics vary by weapon, ammunition entries list only the name, quantity, Price, and Bulk.
If it wasn't for the fact that precious materials specifically call out being able to be applied to ammunition and the fact that magical ammunition exists, which has it's own rule section as well, the ammunition itself would do nothing other than allow you to fire with the weapon.
It doesn't need to say the ammunition takes on the properties of the runes, because it just does. Or it doesn't, even, if you want to look at it that way. It doesn't really matter. The point is that the weapon has the runes, and therefore attacks with it are granted the affects of those runes. This is exactly the same thing as them being "granted" 1d6 damage and deadly d10 when shot from a Shortbow.It's very much possible that RAI you're supposed to need higher grade precious materials to get the effect from weapons with high level runes, but that's not what the rules actually say right now.
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So, you're saying the type of ammunition doesn't matter because the weapon determines everything, but then go on to say it still does special material damage, even though the weapon is overwriting everything?
If ammunition doesn't matter, and all runes apply at all times because they're on the weapon, then the material of the ammo wouldn't do anything.
If the materials on ammo do actually do something, it needs to follow the rules set forth in the special materials section.
Seriously, do you not see your own contradictions here? You can't have the type of ammo not matter for one thing but then totally matter for another, when those two things are linked.
Your flaw in the assumptions your making is that Ammunition is separate from the weapon using it for some reason. Ammunition is required by the weapon using it, the only difference is that it's a consumable rather than permanent. Since you can't make a bow out of metal, you need to make the arrows out of them instead. Just because it's considered a separate item, doesn't mean it's part of that weapon you're using in on.
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So shining ammunition couldn’t be used on a +2 greater striking bow without canceling the benefits of the runes on the bow? That doesn’t sound right.
So, you're saying the type of ammunition doesn't matter because the weapon determines everything, but then go on to say it still does special material damage, even though the weapon is overwriting everything?
You're mixing 2 different things. One if the properties of the weapon and one is a property of the ammo: it's the exact same as expecting the weapons to affect a magic arrow. The magic of the weapon doesn't in some way stop the magic or material of the arrow.
If ammunition doesn't matter, and all runes apply at all times because they're on the weapon, then the material of the ammo wouldn't do anything.
... Why?
If the materials on ammo do actually do something, it needs to follow the rules set forth in the special materials section.
But we are: that section NEVER says that runes on ranged weapons are restricted by special grades on precious material ammo.
Seriously, do you not see your own contradictions here?
there is only a contradiction if you read things into the rules. Nothing in the rules tells you ammo is restricted in the same way weapons re.
Your flaw in the assumptions your making is that Ammunition is separate from the weapon using it for some reason.
Your flaw is that you're assuming a connection that's not there: runes and precious materials do not equate ammo to weapons but you do for some reason.
Ammunition is required by the weapon using it, the only difference is that it's a consumable rather than permanent.
Well a big difference is one is a weapon and one isn't and only precious material weapons are restricted.
Just because it's considered a separate item, doesn't mean it's part of that weapon you're using in on.
Because they are separate items means that ammo isn't a weapon: full stop. You just can't state that they are synonymous when the spells don't call that out in the rules.
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So shining ammunition couldn’t be used on a +2 greater striking bow without canceling the benefits of the runes on the bow? That doesn’t sound right.
Magic ammunition has the explicit rules that you only apply Fundamental runes when using them, unless the ammunition specifically states you can apply other runes.
Also I'm not sure what people are thinking I'm arguing here. I'm only talking about using Special Material ammunition, not normal or Magical ammo.
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So shining ammunition couldn’t be used on a +2 greater striking bow without canceling the benefits of the runes on the bow? That doesn’t sound right.Magic ammunition has the explicit rules that you only apply Fundamental runes when using them, unless the ammunition specifically states you can apply other runes.
Also I'm not sure what people are thinking I'm arguing here. I'm only talking about using Special Material ammunition, not normal or Magical ammo.
Notice no explicate rules for precious material ammo restricting by runes?
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Your flaw is that you're assuming a connection that's not there: runes and precious materials do not equate ammo to weapons but you do for some reason.
The runes/special materials have nothing to do with my point that Ammo is part of the weapon.
Lets see if you can follow this logic here:
When you fire a bow, it requires an arrow. Basically, bows consume arrows in order to Strike.
When a bow fires an arrow it imparts all it's properties onto the arrow, including any runes it has.
The material of the bow doesn't matter since the Arrow is what hits the target, so you would never be able to do cold iron/silver damage with a bow. This make a bow an objectively worse choice over a melee weapon.
Luckily, you can make the arrows out of cold iron. This sets a bow as a more attractive choice for people who want multiple damage types, since they can have a bunch of different arrows with only one set of runes.
Melee weapons need to invest in more pure materials as they get more magical, as the purity of the material determines how much power it can hold.
Since the bow imparts all it's properties into the arrow when firing, the arrow must be pure enough to hold that amount of power, or else the power is lost.
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You are all stuck on the thought that "It doesn't SPECIFICALLY mention ammo!" when they don't have to, since it's already implied through the rules that ammo is part of the weapon, and implied that it would follow the same rules as melee weapons, since they mention the cost of ammo in those same rules that specify the rune limits. It literally says that the cost of Ammunition is 1/10 the cost of a weapon of the same grade, so why would you say it's NOT a weapon?
So shining ammunition couldn’t be used on a +2 greater striking bow without canceling the benefits of the runes on the bow? That doesn’t sound right.Magic ammunition has the explicit rules that you only apply Fundamental runes when using them, unless the ammunition specifically states you can apply other runes.
Also I'm not sure what people are thinking I'm arguing here. I'm only talking about using Special Material ammunition, not normal or Magical ammo.
I’m only trying to understand.
So let’s look at cold iron arrows and a +3 major striking bow. You’re arguing that I would have to use high-grade cold iron arrows in order to get the full benefits of the runes, yes?
What would happen if I used standard grade cold iron instead? Would that reduce the bow with this ammo to +2 greater striking? Or because standard grade cold iron is only level 7 that I couldn’t get better than +1 striking?
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So shining ammunition couldn’t be used on a +2 greater striking bow without canceling the benefits of the runes on the bow? That doesn’t sound right.Magic ammunition has the explicit rules that you only apply Fundamental runes when using them, unless the ammunition specifically states you can apply other runes.
Also I'm not sure what people are thinking I'm arguing here. I'm only talking about using Special Material ammunition, not normal or Magical ammo.
I’m only trying to understand.
So let’s look at cold iron arrows and a +3 major striking bow. You’re arguing that I would have to use high-grade cold iron arrows in order to get the full benefits of the runes, yes?
What would happen if I used standard grade cold iron instead? Would that reduce the bow with this ammo to +2 greater striking? Or because standard grade cold iron is only level 7 that I couldn’t get better than +1 striking?
Standard grade can hold runes up to level 15, so I would allow your runes to scale down to that level. Also Standard Grade weapons are level 10, but like I said, that part doesn't matter. It's what Grade it is that matters.
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We had this discussion a while back about ammunition. It comes down to how you see things.
One camp is of the mind it is unfair that a ranged weapon user can access special material arrows so cheap when a melee weapon user has to pay so much. So they apply the rule for fundamental and property runes equally to ammunition.
Argument against this is ammunition is destroyed and has no fundamental and property runes on it, so why should they have to pay the same amount. Also in PF1 it was far more expensive to make a magical special material weapon that was permanent than ammunition. So some of us think low grade material ammunition works just fine. The cost is irrelevant given ammunition was cheaper in PF1 as well.
The designers have not made it clear. So you can go with either argument for your table if you can get consensus.
Personally, I make it so low grade ammunition works with a high end bow. Special ammunition is already extremely expensive, so you will likely never get it. Ammunition is destroyed after use and ranged weapons do less damage than melee as it is with a half-strength bonus at best for damage and an often lower damage die. It allows the ranged weapon user a fairly cheap type of ammunition that gives some kind of bonus.
I wouldn't spend much time debating it as each camp is firmly on their side unwilling to budge. Just go with what you and your group prefer and don't worry about it until the designers clarify.
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Standard grade can hold runes up to level 15, so I would allow your runes to scale down to that level. Also Standard Grade weapons are level 10, but like I said, that part doesn't matter. It's what Grade it is that matters.Per CRB pg.578
“Standard-grade cold iron object; Level 7...”Anyway, it sounds like the idea would only be to invoke an extra cost to archers. Maybe that was the intent with the design. However, that blange, or whatever magic item that was mentioned earlier in this thread, can be used just fine on melee weapons too. So if the point is to balance the cost of range vs melee, I’m not sure that doesn’t just favor the melee in the end.
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We had this discussion a while back about ammunition. It comes down to how you see things.
One camp is of the mind it is unfair that a ranged weapon user can access special material arrows so cheap when a melee weapon user has to pay so much. So they apply the rule for fundamental and property runes equally to ammunition.
Argument against this is ammunition is destroyed and has no fundamental and property runes on it, so why should they have to pay the same amount. Also in PF1 it was far more expensive to make a magical special material weapon that was permanent than ammunition. So some of us think low grade material ammunition works just fine. The cost is irrelevant given ammunition was cheaper in PF1 as well.
The designers have not made it clear. So you can go with either argument for your table if you can get consensus.
Personally, I make it so low grade ammunition works with a high end bow. Special ammunition is already extremely expensive, so you will likely never get it. Ammunition is destroyed after use and ranged weapons do less damage than melee as it is with a half-strength bonus at best for damage and an often lower damage die. It allows the ranged weapon user a fairly cheap type of ammunition that gives some kind of bonus.
I wouldn't spend much time debating it as each camp is firmly on their side unwilling to budge. Just go with what you and your group prefer and don't worry about it until the designers clarify.
I'm glad someone finally has a well thought out argument. Here's my rebuttal:
Cold Iron Blanch.
It would make absolutely no sense to add a scaling alchemical item to temporarily grant you Cold Iron on 10 arrows if you could just buy 10 low grade arrows for 40g. The item is supposed to replace the cost of Cold Iron being as expensive as it is, only being 1700g rather than 9000g. The benefit of having some cold iron arrows on hand is that you can use them right when you need them. The blanch needs to be applied first, which takes 4 actions at least.
I do think they need to revisit the cost of special material ammo for higher levels, because I can get 5 blanches for the cost of 10 arrows.
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Standard grade can hold runes up to level 15, so I would allow your runes to scale down to that level. Also Standard Grade weapons are level 10, but like I said, that part doesn't matter. It's what Grade it is that matters.Per CRB pg.578
“Standard-grade cold iron object; Level 7...”Anyway, it sounds like the idea would only be to invoke an extra cost to archers. Maybe that was the intent with the design. However, that blange, or whatever magic item that was mentioned earlier in this thread, can be used just fine on melee weapons too. So if the point is to balance the cost of range vs melee, I’m not sure that doesn’t just favor the melee in the end.
You are looking at the wrong section. You need to look at Precious Material Weapons. And no, it's not extra cost on archers, it's equal cost. If a Great Axe user wants cold iron they need to pay the full amount or use a blanch. If an archer wants cold iron, they need to pay the full amount or use a blanch. The difference is archers can use standard arrows until they NEED the cold iron, and they can switch to silver arrows too if that's needed, all with one set of runes. Meanwhile the great axe user is locked to Cold Iron, and has to buy an entirely different weapon, get runes for it as well, and spend actions switching to it if they want a different damage type.
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And no, it's not extra cost on archers, it's equal cost. If a Great Axe user wants cold iron they need to pay the full amount or use a blanch. If an archer wants cold iron, they need to pay the full amount or use a blanch. The difference is archers can use standard arrows until they NEED the cold iron, and they can switch to silver arrows too if that's needed, all with one set of runes. Meanwhile the great axe user is locked to Cold Iron, and has to buy an entirely different weapon, get runes for it as well, and spend actions switching to it if they want a different damage type.
But it is an extra cost. The fact they are consumables makes them more expensive unless you only ever need the 10 arrows. A melee weapon maintains its material regardless of how many strikes or misses the user makes. It would be punishing to an archer to charge them 9000 gold for every 10 ‘attempts’ of a strike.
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Lets say I have an Archer and a Barbarian, and both want to have Cold Iron silver and Adamantine damage. The Archer has a +3 Major Striking Greater Flaming Holy Speed Composite Longbow, and the Barbarian has the same but a Great Axe. That weapon is worth 57900g. To get all the materials they want, the Archer would only need to buy 10 Cold Iron, 10 Silver, and 10 Adamantine arrows. He thinks this is fine to have for a "just in case" situation. That totals to 9000g each for the silver/cold iron and 13500 for the adamantine. The archer will have spent a grand total of 89400g for all this. The Barbarian on the other had has bigger issues.
The barbarian goes and buys a High Grade Adamantine Great Axe, worth 16200 gold. He then transfers all his runes over to it, and lets just say that costs nothing. Then he gets two other great axes, one silver and one cold iron for 10800 each. The problem now is those other axes have no runes on them. In order for them to match the power of his current axe, he would have to spend an additional 57900g each. If he does this, the total cost would be 211500g.
That's 122100g MORE than the archer for the same effect, and in combat he can only have a single damage type in hand at a time, while the archer can fire all three types in a single round. The whole point of the arrows isn't to fire them all the time, it's to save them for that one opportunity where it will come in handy. Until then, you can spam your normal arrows, which are only 1c per piece.
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So, you're saying the type of ammunition doesn't matter because the weapon determines everything, but then go on to say it still does special material damage, even though the weapon is overwriting everything?
If ammunition doesn't matter, and all runes apply at all times because they're on the weapon, then the material of the ammo wouldn't do anything.
If the materials on ammo do actually do something, it needs to follow the rules set forth in the special materials section.
this is the definition of a strawman argument
what you claim others are saying is not what they have saidwhat is being said is:
- weapons made of special materials have restrictions on which runes may be etched on them
— the rules are quite explicitly on this
- ammunition, like an arrow, does not have runes placed on it
— the rules are also quite explicit on this
— as such, what the ammunition is made of is irrelevant with regards to runes
- the runes on the bow matter
— yet again, the rules are quite explicit about this
— the rules state how the runes on a bow affect any arrow fired from that bow
- no where in the rules does it state that ammunition of this that or the other type of material has any limitations on what benefits it may gain from the weapon that ammunition is fired from
— no where
— claims otherwise are based on inference, relying on supposition of implication not explicitly statements
— yeah, don’t do that (infer the designers were implying things they did not explicitly state)
- no one (except you) is claiming “the weapon determines everything”
you misphrased what was being said then try to give the impression you have refuted the argument of the other side
and that is a strawman argument
— yeah, don’t do that
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Since the bow imparts all it's properties into the arrow when firing, the arrow must be pure enough to hold that amount of power, or else the power is lost.
when I said things like “no where in the rules does it say that” and the like type stuff, comments such as the above are examples of what I meant
there is nothing in the rules that says that
one has to resort to sophistry such as
“since it's already implied”
to get there
if the entire basis of your argument is how you infer something you believe was implied, it wasn’t
one should refrain from this type of sophistry
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btw, blanches are an irrelevant sideshow
they are a consumable that adds an effect
looking at a consumable and inferring from that something about non-consumable items ...
yet another logical fallacy
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what is being said is:
- weapons made of special materials have restrictions on which runes may be etched on them
— the rules are quite explicitly on this
- ammunition, like an arrow, does not have runes placed on it
— the rules are also quite explicit on this
— as such, what the ammunition is made of is irrelevant with regards to runes
Ammunition is explicitly priced out as 1/10 a weapon in the very rules that specify the limits on those weapons. To suggest that the material is irrelevant even though it's explicitly mentioned in those rules is just you intentionally ignoring something you don't want to see.
- the runes on the bow matter
— yet again, the rules are quite explicit about this
— the rules state how the runes on a bow affect any arrow fired from that bow
The rules only say "die size" and "other relevant statistics", and since that's in the Weapon Rules and not the Rune Rules, it can easily be referring to Traits/Range/Hands etc. Nowhere in the rules does it explicitly state that runes apply to attacks, other than in the Magical Ammunition rules.
- no where in the rules does it state that ammunition of this that or the other type of material has any limitations on what benefits it may gain from the weapon that ammunition is fired from
— no where
— claims otherwise are based on inference, relying on supposition of implication not explicitly statements
— yeah, don’t do that (infer the designers were implying things they did not explicitly state)
See my point above about ammunition being explicitly priced out in the Special Material Weapons section. If it doesn't have to follow those rules, why mention it there? If it doesn't matter what material the ammo is made of, why can I make high quality ammo? Would it not have been easier to simply price out what a "Cold Iron Arrow" would cost instead of allowing players to make Low/Standard/High quality versions of them?
- no one (except you) is claiming “the weapon determines everything”
It seems the hyperbole went over your head.
you misphrased what was being said then try to give the impression you have refuted the argument of the other side
and that is a strawman argument
— yeah, don’t do that
But that's what the argument is. You are literally arguing that material doesn't matter for runes but does matter for damage type, even though the rules are very explicit that the material does matter for runes. You can't have it both ways. I may be paraphrasing the argument but that doesn't make it a strawman.
btw, blanches are an irrelevant sideshow
they are a consumable that adds an effect
looking at a consumable and inferring from that something about non-consumable items ...
yet another logical fallacy
There you go disregarding a legit argument. How about instead of looking up logical fallacies to throw around you think up an actual argument to my question about the Blanch?
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You are literally arguing that material doesn't matter for runes but does matter for damage type, even though the rules are very explicit that the material does matter for runes.
you get called out on making a strawman fallacy and what’s your response?
doing it againno one except you is arguing what you just claimed I was ‘literally’ arguing
no one
- ammunition does not have runes etched on it
- special materials have restrictions of which runes may be etched on weapons made from that special material
that is, in two bulletin points, the greatly distilled argument
you appear to be arguing
- this thing that does not have runes etched on it must abide by the limitations of things that do have runes etched on them
huh?!?
the rules do not state that
you openly said what you claim is being implied in the rules
no it isn’t
it would be explicitly stated with no need to infer anything
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Lets see if you can follow this logic here:
Sure. I'm with you until:
Since the bow imparts all it's properties into the arrow when firing, the arrow must be pure enough to hold that amount of power, or else the power is lost.
Why? Nothing about your logic is a rule or even rule adjacent. It reads like that's how you want it to run, so you're saying it's that way. Nothing in your logic shows where the arrow IS a magic weapon, and since only magic weapons have rule restrictions on runes, your logic changes nothing. Your logic is something to bring up in a 'SHOULD you need higher grade materials for higher lever runes' not 'DO you need higher grade materials for higher lever runes'.
You are all stuck on the thought that "It doesn't SPECIFICALLY mention ammo!" when they don't have to, since it's already implied through the rules that ammo is part of the weapon, and implied that it would follow the same rules as melee weapons, since they mention the cost of ammo in those same rules that specify the rune limits.
I'm kind of stuck on it because it doesn't imply it to me. I mean not even a little. There is no nexus between ammo and weapon here. Having ammo mentioned in the weapon section isn't odd but that doesn't mean it follows the same rules: in fact we know that it doesn't. IMO, the fact that it doesn't SPECIFICALLY mention ammo is because it's not meant to. Do you really think we are meant to follow unspoken breadcrumbs requiring us to infer connections and make leaps of logic? I'll need to see some errata that does "SPECIFICALLY mention ammo" for it to alter the actual rules that in fact don't say you need higher grade ammo ever.
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See my point above about ammunition being explicitly priced out in the Special Material Weapons section. If it doesn't have to follow those rules, why mention it there
A) why is something that can be made out of special materials mentioned in the special materials section?
are you literally (in the proper use of that word) asking that?B) why isn’t this thing which cannot have runes etched on it not following the rules for things that have runes etched on them?
I know that is a paraphrasing of what you’ve asked yet I hope it demonstrates the non sequitur aspect of your query
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You are literally arguing that material doesn't matter for runes but does matter for damage type, even though the rules are very explicit that the material does matter for runes.you get called out on making a strawman fallacy and what’s your response?
doing it againno one except you is arguing what you just claimed I was ‘literally’ arguing
no one- ammunition does not have runes etched on it
- special materials have restrictions of which runes may be etched on weapons made from that special materialthat is, in two bulletin points, the greatly distilled argument
you appear to be arguing
- this thing that does not have runes etched on it must abide by the limitations of things that do have runes etched on them
huh?!?the rules do not state that
you openly said what you claim is being implied in the rules
no it isn’t
it would be explicitly stated with no need to infer anything
Would you like to reply to any of my other points or are you going to keep attacking me personally? I think there's a name for that, hmm...
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Lets see if you can follow this logic here:Sure. I'm with you until:
Since the bow imparts all it's properties into the arrow when firing, the arrow must be pure enough to hold that amount of power, or else the power is lost.Why? Nothing about your logic is a rule or even rule adjacent. It reads like that's how you want it to run, so you're saying it's that way. Nothing in your logic shows where the arrow IS a magic weapon, and since only magic weapons have rule restrictions on runes, your logic changes nothing. Your logic is something to bring up in a 'SHOULD you need higher grade materials for higher lever runes' not 'DO you need higher grade materials for higher lever runes'.
You are all stuck on the thought that "It doesn't SPECIFICALLY mention ammo!" when they don't have to, since it's already implied through the rules that ammo is part of the weapon, and implied that it would follow the same rules as melee weapons, since they mention the cost of ammo in those same rules that specify the rune limits.I'm kind of stuck on it because it doesn't imply it to me. I mean not even a little. There is no nexus between ammo and weapon here. Having ammo mentioned in the weapon section isn't odd but that doesn't mean it follows the same rules: in fact we know that it doesn't. IMO, the fact that it doesn't SPECIFICALLY mention ammo is because it's not meant to. Do you really think we are meant to follow unspoken breadcrumbs requiring us to infer connections and make leaps of logic? I'll need to see some errata that does "SPECIFICALLY mention ammo" for it to alter the actual rules that in fact don't say you need higher grade ammo ever.
You're already making a "leap in logic" to apply your runes on normal attacks anyway. Like I mentioned, the rules only state "other relevant statistics" in the section of rules about Weapons, nowhere does it mention Runes. Relevant Statistics could only mean Traits for all you know. Who are you to assume what the designers intended by that?
What's the difference between that, and the implication that since Ammunition is literally priced out in the rules about special materials must mean it follows the same rules? Or the implication that since they made an item that follows those rules, it must be how it works normally?
I still haven't seen anyone make an actual argument to explain why the Cold Iron Blanch would apply to ammunition if the designers intended for any low grade ammunition to work with any level of magic weapon. Why make an item cost 1700g for 10 uses, when you can buy 425 arrows instead?
... or are you going to keep attacking me personally? I think there's a name for that, hmm...
you made a classic logical fallacy
one which has its own namethen made the sane logical fallacy
and I stated such, each time
I am unsure how that is a personal attack
Low-grade items can be used in the creation of magic items of up to 8th level, and they can hold runes of up to 8th level. Standard-grade items can be used to create magic items of up to 15th level and can hold runes of up to 15th level. High-grade items use the purest form of the precious material, and can be used to Craft magic items of any level holding any runes. Using purer forms of common materials is so relatively inexpensive that the Price is included in any magic item.
Ammunition
Some entries in the ranged weapons tables are followed by an entry indicating the type of ammunition that weapon launches. The damage die is determined by the weapon, not the ammunition. Because that and other relevant statistics vary by weapon, ammunition entries list only the name, quantity, Price, and Bulk.
When using magic ammunition, use your ranged weapon’s fundamental runes to determine the attack modifier and damage dice.
There are other details, like magic ammunition not using any of the ranged weapon’s property runes.
Precious Material Weapons
Weapons made of precious materials are more expensive and sometimes have special effects. You can make metal weapons out of any of these materials except darkwood, and wooden weapons out of darkwood. To determine the Price of 10 pieces of ammunition, use the base Price for a single weapon, without adding any extra for Bulk.
A magic weapon is a weapon etched with only fundamental runes. A weapon potency rune gives an item bonus to attack rolls with the weapon, and a striking rune increases the weapon’s number of weapon damage dice.
The Prices here are for all types of weapons. You don’t need to adjust the Price from a club to a greataxe or the like. These weapons are made of standard materials, not precious materials such as cold iron.
I can go on and on quoting rules.
None of them support the claim that what a piece of ammunition is or is not made out of limits the benefits it can gain from the fundamental runes of the ranged weapon the ammunition is fired from.
Btw, cold iron blanche works on any material. If the weapon is silver, the blanche makes it temporarily cold iron. That is a major feature being ignored to its design. The ammo I guess isn’t temporary in so much as it gets expended, but that doesn’t change the feature of changing the material applies to arrows as well.
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You're already making a "leap in logic" to apply your runes on normal attacks anyway. Like I mentioned, the rules only state "other relevant statistics" in the section of rules about Weapons, nowhere does it mention Runes. Relevant Statistics could only mean Traits for all you know. Who are you to assume what the designers intended by that?
Weapons have stats. Runes alter those stats. "Some entries in the ranged weapons tables are followed by an entry indicating the type of ammunition that weapon launches. The damage die is determined by the weapon, not the ammunition."
"Damage Dice
Each weapon lists the damage die used for its damage roll. A standard weapon deals one die of damage, but a magical striking rune can increase the number of dice rolled, as can some special actions and spells. These additional dice use the same die size as the weapon or unarmed attack’s normal damage die." Seems like pretty simple logic... Not a leap. Not a hop. Maybe just logic?
What's the difference between that, and the implication that since Ammunition is literally priced out in the rules about special materials must mean it follows the same rules? Or the implication that since they made an item that follows those rules, it must be how it works normally?
Because one is spelled out and one is an invention of yours? You require reading between the lines for your and mine tells you to add that damage...
I still haven't seen anyone make an actual argument to explain why the Cold Iron Blanch would apply to ammunition if the designers intended for any low grade ammunition to work with any level of magic weapon. Why make an item cost 1700g for 10 uses, when you can buy 425 arrows instead?
Why would We need to? Again, it'd be an argument why it shouldn't work not why it doesn't. Right now, the rules are pretty clear that precious material grades are required for weapon runes ON WEAPONS and it's also pretty clear ammo isn't a weapon. A quibble over the blanch should be in it's own thread if you expect someone to debate on that.
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How about instead of looking up logical fallacies to throw around you think up an actual argument to my question about the Blanch?
if I understand your argument correctly:
- the rules on blanches states:“You can pour a vial of this dark liquid onto one melee weapon, one thrown weapon, or 10 pieces of ammunition.”
- why do the rules allow using higher grade (any grade?) on ammunition? unless we should be inferring something about how ammunition made from special materials is to work
do I have that correct?
if so my counter is:
- nothing is explicitly stated
- no, the designers are not implying anything (nor leaving anything for you to infer)
- this item is useful in many ways, not only the one you have singled out; as such, the rules are clear for all of the ways it can be used (even if you feel used this one way is saying more that what the words explicitly say)