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If you get the same Lore skill from two sources at character creation, do you get to pick a different Lore skill as a replacement for one of them? It seems to work that way for non-Lore skills, but that wording isn't there when the Lore is listed. Specifically, the Kobold Lore ancestry feat and the Sewer Dragons background boon both give Kobold Lore as trained.
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Archivesofnethys isn't loading for me right now, so I can't quote the exact section, but if you would gain the Trained Proficiency in a Skill more than once during Character Creation, you instead select a different Skill to become Trained in for every instance beyond the first.
Happened to my Iruxi Ranger, too. Trained in Survival from his Ancestry, Background and Class.
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Yes, but they all have wording like this: "You gain the trained proficiency rank in Stealth and Thievery. If you would automatically become trained in one of those skills (from your background or class, for example), you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You also become trained in Kobold Lore." That seems like it might be intentionally excluding the Lore skill from the free pick, although I can't find anything that explicitly says that.
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The last sentence in the second paragraph of the Skills chapter says "Each time after the first that you would gain the trained proficiency rank in a given skill, you instead allocate the trained proficiency to any other skill of your choice." That's a strong argument to pick a different Lore skill. The problem is, given the wording of the ability where it specifically calls out taking different skills for the duplicate non-Lore skills you are being granted, and does NOT say that for the Lore skill, is that intended to be excluded. And actually, by that wording, you wouldn't even have to take a different Lore skill... you could take ANY skill you weren't already trained in.
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The last sentence in the second paragraph of the Skills chapter says "Each time after the first that you would gain the trained proficiency rank in a given skill, you instead allocate the trained proficiency to any other skill of your choice." That's a strong argument to pick a different Lore skill.
It's not an argument, it's the answer. It says exactly how it works. The text in other sections saying the same thing (or the lack thereof) doesn't overwrite this in any way.
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The last sentence in the second paragraph of the Skills chapter says "Each time after the first that you would gain the trained proficiency rank in a given skill, you instead allocate the trained proficiency to any other skill of your choice." That's a strong argument to pick a different Lore skill. The problem is, given the wording of the ability where it specifically calls out taking different skills for the duplicate non-Lore skills you are being granted, and does NOT say that for the Lore skill, is that intended to be excluded. And actually, by that wording, you wouldn't even have to take a different Lore skill... you could take ANY skill you weren't already trained in.
Yes, I agree. It is a problem. Maybe they will correct it, maybe they will not. I don't see it as a game breaker.
It looks like the only situation that exists is the kobold taking those two options.
EDIT: I take that back. Certain tieflings taking Fiendish Lore with certain regional backgrounds could be viewed as running into the same thing. However, my argument would be “a Lore related to the Abyss” does not need to be “Abyssal Lore,” so you have to pick something else (e.g. Pazuzu Lore).
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I ran into it with the Sailor background and Viking Dedication both giving Sailing Lore. General sentiment when I asked around on discord was that it could be replaced with any skill due to the language that was quoted.
Edit: Though that wasn’t technically at character creation, the rule isn’t limited to character creation.
This also comes up with some archetypes where you gain a lore skill, like Gladiator, that explicitly state you gain another LORE skill. So sometimes it may behave differently for inexplicable reasons.
We should move this thread to the Rules forums because I don't see it as being society specific.
It was Society specific because the issue was generated through the Sewer Dragons boon, which is PFS-only. However, we've since found other instances where it can happen that are not PFS-only.
I have to say, the spirit of the rule seems to be broken by picking any different skill. There's a vast mechanical difference in trained in Lore and trained in "any skill you want." The spirit is held much closer if you replace it with a different Lore skill, and even more so if you can replace it with a related Lore skill (e.g. kobold lore -> trap lore, sailing lore -> constellation lore).
That said, I'll probably never audit a sheet so closely that I'd notice if you had one more or less trained skill than you should.
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We should move this thread to the Rules forums because I don't see it as being society specific.
What do others think? I have not flagged at the time of this post.
I flagged it immediately, but have started not mentioning that, as for some reason it seems to come off as antagonistic, argumentative and/or that the person's question isn't important.
I'm seeing that it's human nature to be defensive when someone is trying to help them.
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Each time after the first that you'd become trained in a given skill, you instead allocate the trained proficiency to any other skill of your choice—though if the skill is a Lore skill, the new skill must also be a Lore skill.
Updating thread with new rules text.
Updating thread with new rules text.
Link?
Updating thread with new rules text.Link?
It's worth noting, btw, that that quote about duplicate proficiencies is in a paragraph talking about the training you get at level 1. I believe if you get a skill after level 1 and it ends up being a duplicate, then it follows the rules listed on the option that gave you that skill in the first place. Some of them allow replacement, but I believe others do not. It's perfectly reasonable, however, to allow replacement with the 1st level replacement rules, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it, nor would I attempt something like that on a PFS character without an official ruling.
Here's the whole thing.
A character gains training in certain skills at 1st level: typically two from their background, a small number of predetermined skills from their class, and several skills of your choice granted by their class. This training increases your proficiency ranks for those skills to trained instead of untrained and lets you use more of the skills' actions. Sometimes you might become trained in the same skill from multiple sources, such as if your background granted training in Crafting and you took the alchemist class, which also grants training in Crafting. Each time after the first that you'd become trained in a given skill, you instead allocate the trained proficiency to any other skill of your choice—though if the skill is a Lore skill, the new skill must also be a Lore skill.
And just in case someone wants it:
Page 233: Clarifying the general rule on repeated skill training that gives you a replacement skill, add at the end of the second paragraph "though if the skill is a Lore skill, the new skill must also be a Lore skill"
Here's the whole thing.
<snip>
And just in case someone wants it:
PF2 Errata
Thanks