This sounds like you were deliberately trying to miff the Rogue.It was a deliberate test to see if getting free exploration activities for minions felt like stepping on the shoes of those that paid for those extra exploration activities with feats. We found out it did.
How often does this come up in an actual game not designed specifically to be a counterexample?Every single one where someone gets free exploration activities so they get to do double what you do and they are still more flexible that you if you do go out of your way to pick up an ability to do 2.
Also, this is something I was doing ... instinctively? Not sure on the word for it. But minions should pick exploration activities last. Player characters should pick their desired exploration activities first, even if they have an ability to pick multiple. Then minions can pick activities that either the entire party needs to do, or anything that no one else wants to do.
Would that fix the miff'ed Rogue problem that you were running into?
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I also consider my ruling a literal reading of the rules.
I’d argue anything that long - how many sentences was it? - is in ‘homebrew’ territory, not a resident of RAW-ville
This scenario doesn't work if commands have to be re-issued every 6 seconds.
this scenario doesn’t work at all - unless the familiar & animal companion are both carried by someone (can be separate someones)
with the idea that a command given out of combat can last longer than 6 seconds
can it last longer than a minute?
cause that would kinda contradict that “If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute ...” thing
I also consider my ruling a literal reading of the rules.I’d argue anything that long - how many sentences was it? - is in ‘homebrew’ territory, not a resident of RAW-ville
The ruling itself: Two sentences, actually.
Intelligent minions can choose an exploration activity, and all minions can be commanded to take an exploration activity. They are allowed to use exploration activities for an indefinite amount of time without further commands.
The rest was my argument and justification for that ruling.
This scenario doesn't work if commands have to be re-issued every 6 seconds.this scenario doesn’t work at all - unless the familiar & animal companion are both carried by someone (can be separate someones)
That is exactly my point. Under the interpretation making commands only last 6 seconds, this stealth scenario is completely unusable. So how do you run such things? This is a reasonably common trope in the genre. Do you just never run such scenes in your games? It seems an arbitrary limitation for no good reason.
with the idea that a command given out of combat can last longer than 6 secondscan it last longer than a minute?
cause that would kinda contradict that “If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute ...” thing
I would let the commands run for longer than a minute. They aren't 'unattended' if they are still actively following orders.
So how do you run such things?
earlier in this thread, I posted in part:
in this specific example, for us, minions and familiars do not exist out of combat; winking into existence when roll initiative is called, then winking back out once that’s over
yes, it makes it interesting playing my gnome witch beastmaster
but this is infinitely more preferable to all but completely having to weave stuff out of nothing into whole cloth
call it our Emperor has No Clothes alternative
and this is similar to what someone else (in part) posted:
In Society games, I usually just ignore the minions outside of combat.
I would let the commands run for longer than a minute. They aren't 'unattended' if they are still actively following orders.
I’m glad to see you used air quotes in that second sentence.
Cause this is a usage of unattended I was previously unaware of; aka you won’t find that in the OED.as someone else commented previously in this thread:
We aren't talking about real life.
we are discussing the PF2e rules; which, as also commented on in this thread:
I don't think anyone is arguing that the minion rules make a lick of logical sense: they are in place as an action limiter so the PC doesn't get multiple creatures worth of actions compared to others. Nothing about exploration changes that nor changes the logic.
and no one is arguing that because the rules don’t
though people argue stuff that isn’t true all the time (we each see it in RL)to be clear:
- you encountered a situation, the type of which you can expect to repeatedly encounter; like a running gag or reoccurring villain
- you resolved the difficulty you encountered in your own way
— not a way supported (nor fully contradicted) by the minion rules
— perhaps a way other tables had, more likely most tables went a different route
- as others have mentioned, they also encountered this
— discussed it with their table
— tried a test run of their homebrew resolution, which was similar to yours
— revised it because that table did not like giving one player more than one exploration activity without having their character take a feat which explicitly allowed such
- your table may feel differently, and may or may not in time come to want to revise your homebrew
to be clear:
- you encountered a situation, the type of which you can expect to repeatedly encounter; like a running gag or reoccurring villain
- you resolved the difficulty you encountered in your own way
— not a way supported (nor fully contradicted) by the minion rules
— perhaps a way other tables had, more likely most tables went a different route
- as others have mentioned, they also encountered this
— discussed it with their table
— tried a test run of their homebrew resolution, which was similar to yours
— revised it because that table did not like giving one player more than one exploration activity without having their character take a feat which explicitly allowed such
- your table may feel differently, and may or may not in time come to want to revise your homebrew
I'm not entirely sure I understand this, but I suspect that you and I are coming to the same conclusion. Let me paraphrase this in my own words and see if you agree.
The minion rules are not fully defined for how to handle minions while in exploration mode. I expect some table variation depending on the campaign going on and what characters and players are at the table. Some tables may opt for a more limiting interpretation where minions do nothing outside of encounter mode. Other tables may opt for a more permissive interpretation where minion characters are almost fully operational characters outside of encounter mode. There is even room in the middle somewhere too.
One thing that doesn't quite sit right with me is calling either option a homebrew or a houserule. I am a big fan of good houserules. But I usually only use that to describe a conscious decision to change a well-defined official rule. The rule in this case is not well-defined.
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If you watch the earlier Knights of Everglades vlogue, hosted by the lead game designer Jason Buhlman, you will see a familiar do all sorts of things outside of combat, with any sort of command or action expenditure.
If it's good enough for the game developers, it's good enough for me.
I also consider my ruling a literal reading of the rules. Just with the idea that a command given out of combat can last longer than 6 seconds.
Here is where you lost me as the improvised activities section illustrates that exploration activities are actions that recur on a per turn basis.
This scenario doesn't work if commands have to be re-issued every 6 seconds.
I agree: that doesn't mean that it's not the way the rules are written. For instance, it also doesn't work in an encounter as you have to make an audible command EVERY round to the minion. The entire minion set-up works very poorly on multiple fronts.
Would that fix the miff'ed Rogue problem that you were running into?
It wouldn't for myself: the PC with minions gets free activities in addition that to everything they normally get ANY get to pick from any of them while I would have to take a class feat for JUST the extra exploration activity and it's limited to a single one and sometimes only part of one. IMO, it's far too good. Having overlap would just be adding some extra salt to the wounds.
If you watch the earlier Knights of Everglades vlogue, hosted by the lead game designer Jason Buhlman, you will see a familiar do all sorts of things outside of combat, with any sort of command or action expenditure.
If it's good enough for the game developers, it's good enough for me.
As I recall multiple things where pointed out as not actually following the rules on those early adventures. The DM can houserule anything that want after all and it was said that they where playing it that if they where unsure of the rules that they'd just go with it and checking the rules afterwards. As such, I don't see much of a basis for a conclusion on the rules: sounds like a good reason for a houserule though. Again, I'm ALL for a complete rewrite of the minion rules to make them not suck.
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Again, I'm ALL for a complete rewrite of the minion rules to make them not suck.
I am too - though my hope extends beyond the minion rule (and I’ve pretty much given up any expectation that we will ever see such come to fruition)
So you hate the current minion rules, so you are going to argue the worst possible interpretation in order to show just how bad they suck, in the hope that the game developers will agree and re-write the core rule book to better suit your desires. Got it.
Out of curiosity... What would you propose for the new rules? Maybe link to a thread in Homebrew forum.
I'm just trying to come up with something better for minion rules and not coming up with much.
So you hate the current minion rules
Yes.
so you are going to argue the worst possible interpretation in order to show just how bad they suck, in the hope that the game developers will agree and re-write the core rule book to better suit your desires. Got it.
Incorrect: we have been over this. I only see ONE SINGLE interpretation what follows the rules. The view you put forth, IMO, isn't an interpretation of the rules but reading something into them in an effort to make them suck less. I COULD attribute it to an effort to make the rules work without a houserule but where does that get us? I don't know YOUR intentions anymore that you do mine. As such, I would REALLY appreciate you cutting out things like what you have done here in this post. Please take my word for it. I REALLY THINK THIS IS HOW THE RULES READ: FULL STOP. I'm not playing a game to pull one over on the devs. I've said these things in the playtest. I've said these things in between. I say them NOW because that is how they read. I complain because as written they suck really bad and I do not have to put forth any effort to make them look worse. :P
Out of curiosity... What would you propose for the new rules? Maybe link to a thread in Homebrew forum.
I'm just trying to come up with something better for minion rules and not coming up with much.
Easiest solution: pseudo-stance. Master spends an action: pet and master enter command mode until something takes them out of it. From then on, master and pet get 2 actions per round. Ways to drop out of it are a free action at start of turn from the master [which refunds an action to them that turn], they get knocked out or they are out of range of communication with each other. Communication is defined as any predetermined form command such as verbal, visual, scent ect. Outside of Command Mode, minions use can use Follow [use up to 3 Stride movements to keep up with it's master], defend itself or flee.
Encounter works in a similar way: the master picks if they are in or out of Command Mode. Out of, things work normally with the master taking it's activity and the minion Following. Command Mode allows both to do an activity but distracts both. Take a -2 circumstance penalty to any rolls you make for those activities, your DC's or if neither of those apply, your initiative when you enter an encounter. This allows for each to do an activity while also making it so they aren't getting something for free: they get quantity of options over quality of them.
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I only see ONE SINGLE interpretation what follows the rules. The view you put forth, IMO, isn't an interpretation of the rules but reading something into them in an effort to make them suck less.
Your interpretation of the minion rules is that the restriction on taking actions in encounter mode also applies to exploration mode. The minion rules don't actually say that.
A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn and can’t use reactions.
That is encounter mode. Exploration mode doesn't have actions, turns, or reactions.
Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands.
Again, encounter mode. Exploration mode doesn't have turns, and isn't the mode used during combat.
If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm.
Now we are finally into something that could be used in exploration mode. But here it doesn't say how long commands last. If in encounter mode, it would be the 6 second round. But without defined time intervals in exploration mode, it is not clear how long a command can last for.
If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please.
This is clearly talking about exploration mode since we are dealing with time frames longer than a minute. What is not clear here is when we start counting that unattended time. Does a minion that is actively following commands still count as attended, or do they lose interest in their orders after a minute if not given orders again? In either case, it certainly sounds like commands can last longer than 6 seconds.
So if minion characters do normally have the ability to act during exploration mode, the master should be able to give them commands that last at least a minute and possibly longer (I am deliberately avoiding saying anything about how many actions per turn minions have during exploration mode since neither actions or turns are defined in exploration mode).
I don't agree with your idea that your interpretation of the rules is the one and only possible correct reading and ruling.
I COULD attribute it to an effort to make the rules work without a houserule but where does that get us?
So far, the only criticism of my interpretation (other than calling it a houserule) has been that it slightly miffs a player that is jealous of the power of another player's character when that other character gets to take two exploration activities and they only get one.
On the other hand, your interpretation relegates familiars to only providing passive abilities such as extra cantrip slots or an additional focus point, and maybe some movement or senses options that for some reason the rest of the party doesn't already have. Since quite a bit of the mechanics power of the Witch class is forced into the familiar, that feels very limiting. Also not great for any other character that wants to have a familiar such as a Wizard with Improved Familiar Attunement thesis or anyone that takes feats to gain or improve their familiar. But at least those players have other options for their Wizard Thesis or class feat selection. Witch doesn't. Your interpretation also makes stealth scenes impossible when there are any minion characters of any variety.
Your interpretation of the minion rules is that the restriction on taking actions in encounter mode also applies to exploration mode. The minion rules don't actually say that.
"If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm." So yes, they do.
here it doesn't say how long commands last.
"Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands." So it has no duration but can be done once per turn.
Exploration mode doesn't have turns, and isn't the mode used during combat.
That's not true at all. The fact that you measure activities in longer time frames doesn't mean turns disappear: in fact the improvised activities sections clearly shows those actions are still tracked as is to see if the activity is tiring or even possible by counting how many actions you are doing per action.
This is clearly talking about exploration mode since we are dealing with time frames longer than a minute.
I don't see that. For instance, encounters that involve chases can easily trigger this rule as commanding your minion only slows you down by wasting actions. Or you've entered an area the minion can't reach [like you summon a huge creature and find yourself with a opening you have to squeeze through and move right into an encounter. So it's not 100% sure it's exploration.
Does a minion that is actively following commands still count as attended, or do they lose interest in their orders after a minute if not given orders again? In either case, it certainly sounds like commands can last longer than 6 seconds.
I'm not sure how you got to that conclusion: I don't see anything that changes the command timeline. 1 command action instantly gives the minion 2 action: full stop. I would say attended is different than constantly commanded though: I'd count 'able to command' them as attended. IE, the minion can hear/detect the presence of the master so that they could be commanded. I'd count unattended as when the master isn't there, knocked out, ect. I've never seen someone try to use unattended as a way to attempt to make an end run around the need for commands for a minion to use actions/activities before in my gaming.
So far, the only criticism of my interpretation (other than calling it a houserule) has been that it slightly miffs a player that is jealous of the power of another player's character when that other character gets to take two exploration activities and they only get one.
On the other hand, your interpretation relegates familiars to only providing passive abilities such as extra cantrip slots or an additional focus point, and maybe some movement or senses options that for some reason the rest of the party doesn't already have. Since quite a bit of the mechanics power of the Witch class is forced into the familiar, that feels very limiting. Also not great for any other character that wants to have a familiar such as a Wizard with Improved Familiar Attunement thesis or anyone that takes feats to gain or improve their familiar. But at least those players have other options for their Wizard Thesis or class feat selection. Witch doesn't. Your interpretation also makes stealth scenes impossible when there are any minion characters of any variety.
The criticism is that it unfairly give extra activities to those that already got benefits from those features. That doesn't seem very limiting, or even mildly limiting: I think some are looking at PF1 that didn't require constant commanding and/or thinking 'what makes sense' instead of what the rules say.
As to stealth, if it's an issue in exploration it's an issue in an encounter so I don't see the problem: the scene is just as impossible. The exact same action is taking place. [Avoid Notice is making a Stealth check] And the stealth scene can still happen with the familiar stuffed into a pocket and the witch sneaking around invisible... I just don't see any logical reason commands work in encounters but become untenable in exploration: it just seems to me the minion character want their cake and eat it too by getting free stuff.
As to a witch... Well, sucks to be you I guess as familiars are a fixed feature. That though in no way means that minions as a result have to be given more abilities. IMO, the witch works JUST fine when the familiar is replaced with a spellbook: the 'lack' of free exploration activities wouldn't even be a thing. I mean just look at baba yaga witches: your familiar is an OBJECT!!! It might not even have movement. That witch works just fine.
Your interpretation of the minion rules is that the restriction on taking actions in encounter mode also applies to exploration mode. The minion rules don't actually say that."If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm." So yes, they do.
I am still giving them commands during exploration mode.
here it doesn't say how long commands last."Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands." So it has no duration but can be done once per turn.
Once per minute is much less frequently than once every six seconds, so it certainly doesn't exceed the frequency allowed. This line still doesn't say anything about how long the minion is allowed to act on the commands in exploration mode.
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Exploration mode doesn't have turns, and isn't the mode used during combat.That's not true at all. The fact that you measure activities in longer time frames doesn't mean turns disappear: in fact the improvised activities sections clearly shows those actions are still tracked as is to see if the activity is tiring or even possible by counting how many actions you are doing per action.
Sorry, I am following the rules here
Before diving into how to play Pathfinder, it’s important to understand the game’s three modes of play, which determine the pace of your adventure and the specific rules you’ll use at a given time.
Encounter mode and Exploration mode follow their own specific rules.
I see the improvised activities rule to be exactly what it says. A way to create a new exploration activity based loosely on an action that can be done during encounter mode. I don't see it as a general statement that exploration mode is nothing more than an extrapolation of encounter mode. I don't see anywhere in the rules that indicates that encounter mode should be just an extrapolation of encounter mode.
This is clearly talking about exploration mode since we are dealing with time frames longer than a minute.I don't see that. For instance, encounters that involve chases can easily trigger this rule as commanding your minion only slows you down by wasting actions. Or you've entered an area the minion can't reach [like you summon a huge creature and find yourself with a opening you have to squeeze through and move right into an encounter. So it's not 100% sure it's exploration.
So chase scenes are another place where your interpretation of minion rules don't work. Fantastic.
As to a witch... Well, sucks to be you I guess as familiars are a fixed feature. That though in no way means that minions as a result have to be given more abilities. IMO, the witch works JUST fine when the familiar is replaced with a spellbook: the 'lack' of free exploration activities wouldn't even be a thing. I mean just look at baba yaga witches: your familiar is an OBJECT!!! It might not even have movement. That witch works just fine.
So in order to play a witch that actually works, I have to choose that one particular rare option for my patron.
This is definitely falling into the territory of
If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
Easiest solution: pseudo-stance. Master spends an action: pet and master enter command mode until something takes them out of it. From then on, master and pet get 2 actions per round. Ways to drop out of it are a free action at start of turn from the master [which refunds an action to them that turn], they get knocked out or they are out of range of communication with each other. Communication is defined as any predetermined form command such as verbal, visual, scent ect. Outside of Command Mode, minions use can use Follow [use up to 3 Stride movements to keep up with it's master], defend itself or flee.
Encounter works in a similar way: the master picks if they are in or out of Command Mode. Out of, things work normally with the master taking it's activity and the minion Following. Command Mode allows both to do an activity but distracts both. Take a -2 circumstance penalty to any rolls you make for those activities, your DC's or if neither of those apply, your initiative when you enter an encounter. This allows for each to do an activity while also making it so they aren't getting something for free: they get quantity of options over quality of them.
In combat your stance would at best not be any better than the normal rules. The master still only gets two actions per turn and the minion gets two actions per turn. And that is only with your rule that you can drop the stance for free on turns that you want all three actions for yourself. And if you rule that this pseudo-stance doesn't interfere with other stances. Otherwise the Ranger/Archer with an animal companion and Point Blank Shot is going to feel severely nerf'ed.
As for the exploration mode, it basically allows the same thing I am ruling - that both the master and the minion can use exploration activities. It just assuages the wounded pride of the other players by imposing a -2 penalty for it. And in normal gameplay it would be a -2 for activities that the entire party probably wants to be successful.
I am still giving them commands during exploration mode.
Commands are quite specific. Doing so takes an action and grants the familiar 2 actions that instant. Going by improvised activities, that tells us that in itself is an activity.
exploration mode
You either accept that turns and actions still exist in encounter mode or you don't. Neither way though gives you a way to get extra exploration activities under the current rules. Either the master has to use an activity to command or you have to make a houserule to allow the have actions or to increase the duration of commands.
Ambiguous Rules
Same result really. The rules aren't ambiguous. You either have a set of rules or you acknowledge there isn't a rule. Both lead to the exact same result under the rules. I don't see a path under the rules to allow it: both mean if you don't like it, house rule it. A reminder of 'rule 0' doesn't mean anything and everything is allowed under the rules.
So in order to play a witch that actually works, I have to choose that one particular rare option for my patron.
How did you come to that conclusion. I'm pointing out a hole in your logic, that witches MUST get free activities because they have so much tied into the familiar.
In combat your stance would at best not be any better than the normal rules.
Good, that was the intent. I anted to stay as close to the status quo as possible.
And if you rule that this pseudo-stance doesn't interfere with other stances. Otherwise the Ranger/Archer with an animal companion and Point Blank Shot is going to feel severely nerf'ed.
Yeah, the intent isn't for it to be a stance: just that it's like them.
It just assuages the wounded pride of the other players by imposing a -2 penalty for it. And in normal gameplay it would be a -2 for activities that the entire party probably wants to be successful.
Correct. It clearly isn't something for nothing anymore. And the party always want their roll to succeed: most want the game to run fairly too though.
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Your interpretation also makes stealth scenes impossible when there are any minion characters of any variety.
So chase scenes are another place where your interpretation of minion rules don't work. Fantastic.
Welcome to PF2e. Enjoy your stay.
as written, yes, quite impossible unless you leave the minions behind or stuff them in a pocket or carry them| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just figured I'd pop in to see where this is going. Don't want to get into the weeds again, though, so I'm not going to comment on most of the myriad of mostly repeated points on both sides. Just wanted to say a couple things.
1. breithauptclan is right about a comprehensive system for a TTRPG to be impossible, and everyone's going to have a different idea of what "typically encountered aspects" are.
But hey, you at least brought up an actual case of rules that should be worded better / clarified in regard to battleforms, so good job there. I hope they're working on that one as we speak.
2. Also, since breithauptclan didn't mention it and it seems relevant:
"Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands." So it has no duration but can be done once per turn.
Note how that mentions "in combat". RAW they actually don't get any actions outside of combat. Is this an oversite? No, because actions aren't a thing in exploration mode. An abstraction of actions are used to understand exploration mode activities, but ultimately the rules are notably different.
And in case someone brings up it doesn't say encounter mode, but rather "in combat" I would like to preemptively add this quote from encounter mode rules:
The rules in this section assume a combat encounter—a battle—but the general structure can apply to any kind of encounter.
.
So it makes sense they'd use combat as a shorthand for encounter mode.Finally, let's not forget the absolute level of incompetence we'd have to assume from the developers if they meant commanding an animal companion or familiar to travel with you to be an exploration activity for the player. After all, they gave NO information about said exploration activity despite multiple classes having easy access to animal companions and minions. The rules about actions being a useful abstraction for exploration activities is only relevant when creating improvised exploration activities, as the game explicitly suggests that GMs should "find the best exploration activity to match your description and describes the effects of that activity. Some exploration activities limit how fast you can travel and be effective." So they seem to assume that most things a player wants to do with a mechanical benefit in exploration mode will have a defined exploration activity, but there isn't one for simply moving from point A to point B with a basic class feature for several classes? I can only think of one valid reason for this without assuming a large amount of incompetence: there isn't an exploration activity for it, because there's no need for one.
Your interpretation also makes stealth scenes impossible when there are any minion characters of any variety.So chase scenes are another place where your interpretation of minion rules don't work. Fantastic.Welcome to PF2e. Enjoy your stay.
as written, yes, quite impossible unless you leave the minions behind or stuff them in a pocket or carry them
Yep, who would have thought that if you butcher the rules the rules don't work?
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what is being butchered here?
CONTROLLING UNDEAD
Controlled undead gain the minion trait. Minions can use 2 actions per turn and can’t use reactions. A minion acts on your turn in combat when you spend an action to issue it verbal commands (this action has the auditory and concentrate traits). If given no commands, undead minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm. If left unattended for at least 1 minute, mindless undead minions don’t act, and intelligent ones act as they please. You can’t have more than four undead minions at a time.
Minion
Minions are creatures that directly serve another creature. A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn and can’t use reactions. Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands. For an animal companion, you Command an Animal; for a minion that’s a spell or magic item effect like a summoned minion you Sustain a Spell or Sustain an Activation; and if not otherwise specified, you issue a verbal command, which is a single action with the auditory and concentrate traits. If given no commands, by default minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm. If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals often indulge their creature comforts, and sapient minions act how they please.
minion (trait) Minions are creatures that directly serve another creature. A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn and can’t use reactions. Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands. For an animal companion, you Command an Animal; for a minion that’s a spell or magic item effect, like a summoned minion, you Sustain a Spell or Sustain an Activation; if not otherwise specified, you issue a verbal command, a single action with the auditory and concentrate traits. If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm. If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please.
those are the rules
“If left unattended for at least 1 minute, ...”“If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, ...”
“If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, ...”
so what’s being butchered?
claims that minions don’t require near constant attention
claims that minions can be issued a command then will follow it longer than very briefly
that is the butchering
no one is arguing these rules are rational or even vaguely internally consistent (they are not)
but they are quite clear and unambiguous
and those are the rules:
- a minion will follow a command for the equivalent of two actions, that’s it
- a minion briefly ignored will do nothing except defend itself or escape obvious harm
- a minion ignored a wee bit longer than briefly (“at least 1 minute”, “typically 1 minute”) will ‘do its own thing’
— mindless: nothing
— animal: “often indulge their creature comforts”, “follow their instincts”
— intelligent/sapient: “act as they please“, “act how they please”
Yeah, you can choose to run the game in a way that doesn't satisfy you or your players. And so? Just don't.
In this thread and others, alternative interpretations of the rules have been shown which can probably make your game better. Sticking to the one that doesn't work for you is only your choice.
And yes, I know, PFS. I guess that if people are playing, they are ok with how it's run. I really don't think that PFS GMs routinely screw players with an animal companion when in exploration mode, just to show that the game rules as written allow for something like that.
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So in order to play a witch that actually works, I have to choose that one particular rare option for my patron.How did you come to that conclusion. I'm pointing out a hole in your logic, that witches MUST get free activities because they have so much tied into the familiar.
I'm pointing out that since familiars are so low powered during combat, and under your ruling they are completely useless out of combat, that the entire class feature is a dead feature that does basically nothing except some passive abilities that are generally worse than similar feats. I cannot possibly accept the idea that the intent of the developers when creating the Witch class, the Wizard Familiar thesis, ancestry and class feats that give a familiar, and the Familiar Master archetype was 'well, if you choose those ... sucks to be you'.
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Don't want to get into the weeds again, though, so I'm not going to comment on most of the myriad of mostly repeated points on both sides.
Yeah, I think I am done here too. The difference in ruling appears to stem from a fundamental difference in what Exploration mode actually is. If you consider Exploration mode to be just a shortcut for long stretches of Encounter mode, then the minion rules seem to say that you can't use minions for anything unless you are constantly egging them on to continue working. If instead you consider Exploration mode to be, as it says, a separate mode of gameplay with its own rules then that leaves the opportunity for using a familiar or other minion for something useful available.
I find a lot of similarity between PF2 Exploration mode and Starfinder's starship combat rules. Different rules for how turns work. Different actions that can be used. Time is measured differently and the timing interval is deliberately left undefined.
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That's only for combat.No, what I quoted in no way references combat.
Yeah and?
You really want to see a whole chapter explaining that Animal Companions can follow you around without the need for direction, that dogs can fetch and cats can purr? Maybe a whole guide explaining you how often they need to eat, what is their diet, how to fish/hunt/gather their prefered food? Also explanations on how to make them happy, because a happy animal companion is important.I don't. I just need rules for combat because I play Pathfinder 2 and not with a tamagochi.
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CRB p17: Actions
Single actions use this symbol: [one-action]. They’re the simplest, most common type of action. You can use three single actions on your turn in an encounter, in any order you see fit
CRB p10: Encounters
In the course of your adventures, there will be times when a simple skill check is not enough to resolve a challenge—when fearsome monsters stand in your character’s way and the only choice is to do battle. In Pathfinder, this is called an encounter. Encounters usually involve combat, but they can also be used in situations where timing is critical, such as during a chase or when dodging hazards.
While exploration is handled in a free-form manner, encounters are more structured...
CRB p634: Minions
Minions are creatures that directly serve another creature. A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn and can’t use reactions. Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands.... If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please.
The text under minions is written explicitly for encounters. We know this, because it uses "Actions" rules and terminology. We know Actions are used for Encounters. The minion encounter rules are not intended to cover situations outside of encounters like exploration mode, downtime, or roleplaying in general.
The rules for minions are well written when you consider they are for encounters only. I think they elegantly balance the benefits of having a minion with action economy to be fair to everyone at the table and also fun.
CRB p17: Actions
Single actions use this symbol: [one-action]. They’re the simplest, most common type of action. You can use three single actions on your turn in an encounter, in any order you see fitCRB p10: Encounters
In the course of your adventures, there will be times when a simple skill check is not enough to resolve a challenge—when fearsome monsters stand in your character’s way and the only choice is to do battle. In Pathfinder, this is called an encounter. Encounters usually involve combat, but they can also be used in situations where timing is critical, such as during a chase or when dodging hazards.
While exploration is handled in a free-form manner, encounters are more structured...CRB p634: Minions
Minions are creatures that directly serve another creature. A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn and can’t use reactions. Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands.... If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please.The text under minions is written explicitly for encounters. We know this, because it uses "Actions" rules and terminology. We know Actions are used for Encounters. The minion encounter rules are not intended to cover situations outside of encounters like exploration mode, downtime, or roleplaying in general.
The rules for minions are well written when you consider they are for encounters only. I think they elegantly balance the benefits of having a minion with action economy to be fair to everyone at the table and also fun.
Exactly what I was thinking when looking at this thread. I also, echo your thoughts with regard to the minion system. During actual play it is smooth and works well.
