Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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So, I recently got a chronicle for a tier 7-11 game and we played high tier.
The chronicle sheet had the lower tier items crossed out. Now, the thing is, the higher tier had the regular version of the items, whereas lower tier had the "lesser" version of the items. I always thought that if you had access to a regular or greater version of an item, you automatically have access to the lesser version.
Also, this is the first time in 11 years of PFS that I had the low tier items crossed out after playing high tier.
The GM said this is somewhat normal for UK/Europe to cross out the lower tier items, but, I've never seen or done this when I GM here in the US.
The chronicle is from #9-11: The Jarlsblood Witch Saga, btw.
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Step 7: Mark any special boons the players did or did not earn (U) and cross out any treasure items the party didn’t find in the scenario (V); additionally, if you’re running the lower subtier, always cross out all of the items listed for the higher subtier.
Its slightly odd when you don't find items because they don't exist in the high tier but they don't generally get crossed off I think.
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I've seen it a few times, but most often during the higher-tier 'evergreen' scenarios (where it is actually a requirement of the scenario as what loot is discovered is dependent on what creatures one fights, etc.)
It's rare, though, especially when the 'lower level' items are 'commonly available things'.
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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Step 7: Mark any special boons the players did or did not earn (U) and cross out any treasure items the party didn’t find in the scenario (V); additionally, if you’re running the lower subtier, always cross out all of the items listed for the higher subtier.Its slightly odd when you don't find items because they don't exist in the high tier but they don't generally get crossed off I think.
I sent that paragraph from the Guide to the GM. It doesn't say anything about crossing the lower tier stuff.
Anyway, he was nice and sent me a new chronicle with the low tier items not crossed out even though he didn't agree with me. (He is an awesome GM and the game is in my top 5 "most fun" games I ever played.)
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I will have to try and find it, but Paizo (Tonya?) confirmed that crossing off the items from the lower tier is the expectation. It is a departure from PFS1 so a lot of us were unaware of it initially, but it is the way they intend it to be. Maybe Jared can jump in and quote the relevant text more quickly than we can locate it, or the confirmation post.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Not posting this as "Guide" because I am not at my computer, and there is a slim possibility something I say might be wrong.
Each of the campaigns has different rules for this. And the PFS 1 rules are the most complex.
PfS2. Cross off the tier they did not play. Cross of anything in tier they did not find / earn*
SfS. Cross off the high tier if they did not play the high tier. Cross off the things the scenario tells you are dependent on a check or encounter the PCs failed.
PFS1. Cross off anything the players did not encounter or failed to earn*.
*Item access and Gold / credits earned are based of locating the treasure and acquiring access to it. *Not* based on taking it. If the PCS *could* take it, but *chose* not to, you do not cross it off the list or penalize their gold / credits unless the scenario tells you to do so.
In PFS 1, the GM is not supposed to cross off the low tier, as often it contains things that are *also* encountered in the high tier. However often specific items in the low tier don't show up in the high tier, and so are crossed off.
And if that sounds super frustrating, complicated, and prone to errors, now you understand why PFS2 and SFS changed that system.
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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I will have to try and find it, but Paizo (Tonya?) confirmed that crossing off the items from the lower tier is the expectation. It is a departure from PFS1 so a lot of us were unaware of it initially, but it is the way they intend it to be. Maybe Jared can jump in and quote the relevant text more quickly than we can locate it, or the confirmation post.
This is in regards to 1e. ;)
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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PFS1. Cross off anything the players did not encounter or failed to earn*.*Item access and Gold/credits earned are based of [sic] locating the treasure and acquiring access to it. *Not* based on taking it. If the PCS *could* take it, but *chose* not to, you do not cross it off the list or penalize their gold/credits unless the scenario tells you to do so.
In PFS 1, the GM is not supposed to cross off the low tier, as it often contains things that are *also* encountered in the high tier. However, often specific items in the low tier don't show up in the high tier, and so are crossed off.
This is precisely how I've been doing it for 10+ years.
The main reason I had an issue is because the regular or "greater" versions of the items are really expensive. The "lesser" items in the low tier are affordable. (i.e. Talismans from Occult Adventures).
So I was shocked when they were crossed out in the lower tier.
(I come from a time and place in PFS where we only bought magic items for our PCs from their earned chronicle sheets since they were special items we picked up on that adventure. It seemed more personable to that PC, in a sense.)
Also, when a special item, like a partially charged wand, let's say a wand of cure moderate wounds (10 charges) shows up on a chronicle, it will have the tag of "limit 1". These will sometimes show up in the rewards for both tiers, so, what I have always done is cross out the one in high tier, leaving the low tier one available along with the other low tier items.
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In PFS 1, the GM is not supposed to cross off the low tier, as it often contains things that are *also* encountered in the high tier. However, often specific items in the low tier don't show up in the high tier, and so are crossed off.This is precisely how I've been doing it for 10+ years.
The main reason I had an issue is because the regular or "greater" versions of the items are really expensive. The "lesser" items in the low tier are affordable. (i.e. Talismans from Occult Adventures).
So I was shocked when they were crossed out in the lower tier.
(I come from a time and place in PFS where we only bought magic items for our PCs from their earned chronicle sheets since they were special items we picked up on that adventure. It seemed more personable to that PC, in a sense.)Also, when a special item, like a partially charged wand, let's say a wand of cure moderate wounds (10 charges) shows up on a chronicle, it will have the tag of "limit 1". These will sometimes show up in the rewards for both tiers, so, what I have always done is cross out the one in high tier, leaving the low tier one available along with the other low tier items.
Except if you encountered the greater version in the high tier, you never encounter the lesser, and thus it is crossed off.
Ditto partially charged wands, you only get to keep the one you found, not the cheaper lower level one.
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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Except if you encountered the greater version in the high tier, you never encounter the lesser, and thus it is crossed off.
No no no! This is exactly my point!
I'll try to dig the ruling up. It was explicitly stated that if you found the greater versions, the lesser versions were available!
Please! Show me where this was stated!
That wasn't how it was back in the day.
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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OCD. Consistency. 300+ chronicles and the low tier stuff has a big "X" marked through it on this one chronicle.
I read left to right. When going through each PCs sheet, the low tier stuff never has a big X on it. It's usually crossed out on the high tier side because, obviously, it wasn't played in high tier. Why is this so hard for people to understand? It was how chronicles were reported for years.
All the high tier games I've played or GMd, there is no big "X" on both sides. Maybe an item or two is crossed out on the sheet due to the party not recovering the item.
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Does that really matter? How often, if ever does a PC playing the high sub-tier not have access to the lesser version due to normal progression tables? Unless, I suppose if the item in question is named/unique.
Doesn't CORE characters work that way? Only available items are those from Core and those unlocked through chronicle sheets? That's one situation where it matters. Other is with partially charged wands - can't normally purchase those, and higher level wands are generally a lot more expensive, so the lower tier wand is often more desireable.
(Other one is that there are several sheets that include a 'unique' lesser version that does not exist outside of the chronicle sheet.)
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Except if you encountered the greater version in the high tier, you never encounter the lesser, and thus it is crossed off.
No no no! This is exactly my point!
I'll try to dig the ruling up. It was explicitly stated that if you found the greater versions, the lesser versions were available!
Please! Show me where this was stated!
That wasn't how it was back in the day.
In 5+ years of editing the PFS1 guide, I have never come across that rule. Certainly it was not a rule any of us on the guide team intentionally added.
The partially charged wands one would be especially problematic...
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Does that really matter? How often, if ever does a PC playing the high sub-tier not have access to the lesser version due to normal progression tables? Unless, I suppose if the item in question is named/unique.Doesn't CORE characters work that way? Only available items are those from Core and those unlocked through chronicle sheets? That's one situation where it matters. Other is with partially charged wands - can't normally purchase those, and higher level wands are generally a lot more expensive, so the lower tier wand is often more desireable.
I believe there may be a thing for core. Alis for unlocking access to weapons and armor. (A +X weapon where the base weapon is only available via a chronicle sheet, you can buy the weapon separately of the +X.) But I would have to double check that second one.
(Other one is that there are several sheets that include a 'unique' lesser version that does not exist outside of the chronicle sheet.)
But usually you can only buy that lesser version if that is the version you encountered.
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Except if you encountered the greater version in the high tier, you never encounter the lesser, and thus it is crossed off.No no no! This is exactly my point!
I'll try to dig the ruling up. It was explicitly stated that if you found the greater versions, the lesser versions were available!
Please! Show me where this was stated!
That wasn't how it was back in the day.
Since you mentioned ~10 years ago, I searched Josh Frost's and Michael Brock's posts for the words "higher" and "lower", and I searched Josh Frost's posts for "Item" and "Wand". Mark Moreland would probably be a good person to search, too, but my searches were hampered by the fact that the URLs for older Forum posts no longer work, since the layout of the Forum trees changed a long while back.
That all said, if there was such a ruling, it probably happened between the 2.2 Guide update and the 4.0., but, unfortunately, the lack of that ruling being reprinted in later versions probably means it wouldn't be allowed anymore anyways. And what I did find doesn't look good:
when you eat a mod do you get item access?Yes, but only in your character's appropriate tier
You can only buy partially charged wands and smaller quantities of magical ammunition when they appear on a chronicle sheet that way.
Chronicle access gives you access to that exact item
Any items you don't find during a scenario are crossed off and are not legal for purchase
...you cannot buy partially charged wands...The exception is that you may purchase these types of items if they appear on a chronicle sheet.
Hope that helps, and happy to be proven wrong ^_^
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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Except if you encountered the greater version in the high tier, you never encounter the lesser, and thus it is crossed off.
No no no! This is exactly my point!
I'll try to dig the ruling up. It was explicitly stated that if you found the greater versions, the lesser versions were available!
Please! Show me where this was stated!
That wasn't how it was back in the day.In 5+ years of editing the PFS1 guide, I have never come across that rule. Certainly it was not a rule any of us on the guide team intentionally added.
The partially charged wands one would be especially problematic...
I'm quite sure this rule was once in effect and that it's older than 5 years.
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I'm quite sure this rule was once in effect and that it's older than 5 years.
Except if you encountered the greater version in the high tier, you never encounter the lesser, and thus it is crossed off.
No no no! This is exactly my point!
I'll try to dig the ruling up. It was explicitly stated that if you found the greater versions, the lesser versions were available!
Please! Show me where this was stated!
That wasn't how it was back in the day.In 5+ years of editing the PFS1 guide, I have never come across that rule. Certainly it was not a rule any of us on the guide team intentionally added.
The partially charged wands one would be especially problematic...
Entirely possible, but I am 95% certain it was no longer in effect when I took over.
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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It's rare, though, especially when the 'lower level' items are 'commonly available things'.
I think this is the main reason why we don't cross out the lower tier stuff (after playing high tier), here in Denver, at least.
They're commonly available items anyway.Except for special items, like partially charged wands, of course.
Step 7: Mark any special boons the players did or did not earn (U) and cross out any treasure items the party didn’t find in the scenario (V); additionally, if you’re running the lower subtier, always cross out all of the items listed for the higher subtier.
And also this. It doesn't say anything about crossing out all of the stuff in the low tier if playing the high tier. Just items the group didn't find.
It was never done since I started playing PFS in 2010.
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It's rare, though, especially when the 'lower level' items are 'commonly available things'.I think this is the main reason why we don't cross out the lower tier stuff (after playing high tier), here in Denver, at least.
They're commonly available items anyway.
Except for special items, like partially charged wands, of course.Step 7: Mark any special boons the players did or did not earn (U) and cross out any treasure items the party didn’t find in the scenario (V); additionally, if you’re running the lower subtier, always cross out all of the items listed for the higher subtier.And also this. It doesn't say anything about crossing out all of the stuff in the low tier if playing the high tier. Just items the group didn't find.
It was never done since I started playing PFS in 2010.
True.
But if you ran into a Greater Amulet of Freedom in high tier, you *didn't* run into a *Lesser* Amulet of Freedom, so the lesser would be crossed off.
Likewise if you ran into a Wand of Dispel Magic (SL 5) with 10 charges, you *didn't* run into the (lower tier) Wand of Dispel Magic (SL 3) with 10 charges, so the lower tier wand would get crossed off.
This mostly only matters for wands, items that are not sanctioned for general play, and people with boons that give them discounts for items that are on their chronicles.
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I vaguely remember a ruling with regards to wands that you could buy the lower tier version, but if it was limit 1, you then had to cross off the high tier version as well. That would have been much more recent than Josh Frost. Either John Compton or Tonya, I think. I'll try searching their posts.
With regards to marking out the low subtler items entirely, by at least late season 7, the categories on the sheets didn't include a low tier list of items anymore. It was All Subtiers and the high subtler. EDIT again: And by season 10, it looks like it went back to individual subtiers on the chronicles. So I guess they are just all over the place. But the quote from Linda below should clarify things.
EDIT AHA! Found what I was thinking of. Though it actually clarifies you don't cross off the item in both tiers when you buy one. It was a post from Linda:
If it is the exact same item—for example, the low subtier gives 2 doses of black lotus extract, and the higher gives 3—you can buy the amount listed in the high subtier. That is, you can buy 3 doses, not 5.
If, however, the item is different, even if it is similarly themed, you can buy the items listed in both subtiers after playing the high subtier. If low subtier has 3 +1 flaming arrows and a wand of cure light wounds with 5 charges and the high subtier has 4 +1 flaming burst arrows and a wand of cure moderate wounds with 5 charges, you can buy a total of 7 arrows and 2 wands.