Does anyone know of there is either a mythological equivalent to or a non-D&D fantasy version of the D&D *reincarnate* spells? Obviously they exist in D&D/Pathfinder and related stuff, but I’m looking for it’s origin and inspiration other than the games. (And other than religious reincarnation, which is very different.)
Basically in myth or even story, I’m asking where does the idea of, “You ded; BAM you alive but a different weird body.” come from?
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Isekai? xD
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I wouldn't be surprised if the origin was a wargame thing. You want to bring back a dead hero, but you need to indicate that it's been reincarnated so; different miniature.
It does seem a stretch even from early 70s US pop culture understandings of other religions.
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Isekai? xD
HAH!
... but they’re so often the same body...| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
First off, its association with druids is something that is attested in antiquity, with sources slightly before Julius Caesar, as well as Caesar himself, noting that the druids held such beliefs. Some contemporaries identified the druidic belief in reincarnation as Pythagorean in origin.
So while the more magical aspects of the druid (shapeshifting, nature magic) may owe much to Merlin and paganism, reincarnation was something that was definitely attested as being part of their belief-set from way back then.
I wouldn't be surprised if the origin was a wargame thing. You want to bring back a dead hero, but you need to indicate that it's been reincarnated so; different miniature.
It does seem a stretch even from early 70s US pop culture understandings of other religions.
See, that’s the thing.
I’m pretty sure miniature water gaming had nothing like it—if nothing else, Chainmail would have been the first because Gygax et. al. were among the first to add fantasy at all and then it was just flavor to the current rules.
(The ur-example was having each statue repeated Ent a single character instead of a group of soldiers and having the catapult be a wizard lobbing fireballs instead.)
So it’s a weird thing at best.
First off, its association with druids is something that is attested in antiquity, with sources slightly before Julius Caesar, as well as Caesar himself, noting that the druids held such beliefs. Some contemporaries identified the druidic belief in reincarnation as Pythagorean in origin.
So while the more magical aspects of the druid (shapeshifting, nature magic) may owe much to Merlin and paganism, reincarnation was something that was definitely attested as being part of their belief-set from way back then.
Which method, though? Instant or more like current religious of, “next time you are born...” type of thing.
Pythagreus seems an odd place for reincarnation (unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying), though I admit I’ve forgotten most of his religious teachings. (It’s been a hot decade since I read up on his stuff.)
Isekai? xDHAH!
... but they’re so often the same body...
(Though to be fair, two of my favorite isekai don’t do that at all, so... #notallisekai, I guess.)
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First off, its association with druids is something that is attested in antiquity, with sources slightly before Julius Caesar, as well as Caesar himself, noting that the druids held such beliefs. Some contemporaries identified the druidic belief in reincarnation as Pythagorean in origin.
So while the more magical aspects of the druid (shapeshifting, nature magic) may owe much to Merlin and paganism, reincarnation was something that was definitely attested as being part of their belief-set from way back then.
Which method, though? Instant or more like current religious of, “next time you are born...” type of thing.
Pythagreus seems an odd place for reincarnation (unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying), though I admit I’ve forgotten most of his religious teachings. (It’s been a hot decade since I read up on his stuff.)
Let's let the Rubicon-crosser describe it. Gallic Wars:
With regard to their actual course of studies, the main object of all education is, in their opinion, to imbue their scholars with a firm belief in the indestructibility of the human soul, which, according to their belief, merely passes at death from one tenement to another; for by such doctrine alone, they say, which robs death of all its terrors, can the highest form of human courage be developed. Subsidiary to the teachings of this main principle, they hold various lectures and discussions on the stars and their movement, on the extent and geographical distribution of the earth, on the different branches of natural philosophy, and on many problems connected with religion.
So yeah, the "die and come back in another body" type. Other sources, such as Polyhistor and Diodorus, mention it being "after some number of years," so it's not instant like the spell.
But then, a reincarnate spell in line with the actual philosophy wouldn't exactly be playable. "Yeah, your character is dead. The druid casts reincarnate. So, you'll be born as that after that many years."
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(Though to be fair, two of my favorite isekai don’t do that at all, so... #notallisekai, I guess.)
Some of the best isekai are monster reincarnations, like TenSura, Overlord & Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka. #ProMonsterReincarnation
(Though to be fair, two of my favorite isekai don’t do that at all, so... #notallisekai, I guess.)Some of the best isekai are monster reincarnations, like TenSura, Overlord & Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka. #ProMonsterReincarnation
Hah! My absolute favorite, though, is Bakarina.
First off, its association with druids is something that is attested in antiquity, with sources slightly before Julius Caesar, as well as Caesar himself, noting that the druids held such beliefs. Some contemporaries identified the druidic belief in reincarnation as Pythagorean in origin.
So while the more magical aspects of the druid (shapeshifting, nature magic) may owe much to Merlin and paganism, reincarnation was something that was definitely attested as being part of their belief-set from way back then.
Which method, though? Instant or more like current religious of, “next time you are born...” type of thing.
Pythagreus seems an odd place for reincarnation (unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying), though I admit I’ve forgotten most of his religious teachings. (It’s been a hot decade since I read up on his stuff.)
Let's let the Rubicon-crosser describe it. Gallic Wars:
With regard to their actual course of studies, the main object of all education is, in their opinion, to imbue their scholars with a firm belief in the indestructibility of the human soul, which, according to their belief, merely passes at death from one tenement to another; for by such doctrine alone, they say, which robs death of all its terrors, can the highest form of human courage be developed. Subsidiary to the teachings of this main principle, they hold various lectures and discussions on the stars and their movement, on the extent and geographical distribution of the earth, on the different branches of natural philosophy, and on many problems connected with religion.So yeah, the "die and come back in another body" type. Other sources, such as Polyhistor and Diodorus, mention it being "after some number of years," so it's not instant like the spell.
But then, a reincarnate spell in line with the actual philosophy wouldn't exactly be playable. "Yeah, your character is dead. The druid casts reincarnate. So,...
Interesting. It doesn’t really cover retaining memories, either, but that’s fair. Slightly disappointing, but not really the worst thing.
In any event, thanks!| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IIRC reincarnate was in the magic-user spell list before the druid was even a thing. If it doesn't come from wargaming my next guess is more the mad scientist/alien/wizard experimenting on their minions.
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Spring and harvest myth characters frequently have a death and rebirth aspect to them. The phoenix is an egyptian myth creature that dies and is reborn, based on the deity Bennu, so that gets us so 25th century BC which I think predates Osiris's rebirth myth.
This only slightly predates Hindu myth, which is full of possession by ancestor spirits, including the deliberate welcoming of the possession to allow the ancestor to live through you. That's got to be pretty close.
24th to 25th century BC either Egyptian or Hindu.
While not a spell Michael Moorcock’s eternal champion stories make heavy use of reincarnation. Considering these books were actually sited in the original AD&D DM’s Guide as inspiration that would be a good indication of their importance as a source for reincarnation.