If things of negligible bulk still weigh against a Tiny creature's bulk capacity, such as with a sprite PC, does that mean that runes are treated as counting against their bulk limitations as well?
I would assume that runes on sprite-sized items would be scaled for sprites and would therefore be of negligible bulk for them just as small/medium sized runes are negligible for small/medium characters.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
With all of these threads about Sprites and Bulk conversions, I'm beginning to see why they have the Rare trait with how tedious and annoying these rules interactions are.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Except one can transfer Sprite Runes to Human objects and vice-versa.
So Runes should count against Bulk.
---
On the opposite side, one might say some negligible weight could be considered so negligible that they remain that way for all creatures.
(My cats have had no issues carrying feathers.)
Given the handwaving around the physics & metaphysics of Runes & their transfer, allowing Sprites to treat Runes so wouldn't break verisimilitude, and may even be necessary for game balance.
Then again, this all may be why Sprites are nearly always portrayed scantily clad w/ only one weapon.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Runes are like magical glyphs and carvings. Under no circumstance would I ever rule them as having weight.
Runes are like magical glyphs and carvings. Under no circumstance would I ever rule them as having weight.
If anything, the application of a rune makes an item weigh less because you carved off some of the metal.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
If things of negligible bulk still weigh against a Tiny creature's bulk capacity, such as with a sprite PC, does that mean that runes are treated as counting against their bulk limitations as well?
RAW runes don't have a weight.
Items can have a number to indicate their Bulk value, or they can be light (indicated by an L) or negligible (indicated by a —) for the purpose of determining Bulk.
The rune entry in the CRB or archives of nethys does not have a bulk entry at all, let alone one with "—".
And even with the strictest RAW, "can have" can be read as permissive.
RAI, they might have intended them to be negligable, I doubt it though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If things of negligible bulk still weigh against a Tiny creature's bulk capacity, such as with a sprite PC, does that mean that runes are treated as counting against their bulk limitations as well?RAW runes don't have a weight.
Items can have a number to indicate their Bulk value, or they can be light (indicated by an L) or negligible (indicated by a —) for the purpose of determining Bulk.The rune entry in the CRB or archives of nethys does not have a bulk entry at all, let alone one with "—".
And even with the strictest RAW, "can have" can be read as permissive.
RAI, they might have intended them to be negligable, I doubt it though.
Works for me! :)
I thought from the OP that there was a dash. If there's nothing, then this is a non-issue (not that it had been much of one anyway).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
... It's stored on a computer hard drive (the weapon or armour in this probably-tortured analogy) or on a USB flash drive (the runestone). Both the computer's hard drive and the flash drive both have weight of their own, but the file itself is just a collection of information with no weight of its own.
... It's stored on a computer hard drive (the weapon or armour in this probably-tortured analogy) or on a USB flash drive (the runestone). Both the computer's hard drive and the flash drive both have weight of their own, but the file itself is just a collection of information with no weight of its own.
Interesting!
But an 'empty' drive doesn't always mean it's filled with 0s, just like a file isn't composed of 1s only. So, writing a file into our device could even mean that we are making it weigh less.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I figured there would actually be a difference, but I figured it was so small it wouldn't matter for getting my point across.
Isn't that the definition of Negligible, the crux of this question? ;)
Oxford Languages: "so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I figured there would actually be a difference, but I figured it was so small it wouldn't matter for getting my point across.Isn't that the definition of Negligible, the crux of this question? ;)
Oxford Languages: "so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant"
Yeah, taken literally it's a problem, because a tiny creature can become weighted down by raindrops or sand grains.
As always, apply the rule, but use common sense first.
As always, apply the rule, but use common sense first.
I agree that this is the best way to go about it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As always, apply the rule, but use common sense first.I agree that this is the best way to go about it.
An issue though is that the default lowest bulk for items is Negligible. Normally this isn't an issue but for Tiny that means that the absolute smallest amount of bulk any item they pick up can be is Light. So it's not hard to see just about anything weighing down a sprite when you use common sense within that context.
And it's hard to rate something as less than negligible... Infinitesimal? Do we then make a new bulk category like that JUST for Tiny creatures that acts like negligible for them?
...that means that the absolute smallest amount of bulk any item they pick up can be is Light.
Actually, in the case of Tiny creatures the rules still seem to differentiate between Light and Negligible (that is, Light is still Light and Negligible is still Negligible; Negligible does not become Light). That being said, Negligible for a Tiny creature acts as though it were Light in all practical ways--so largely a moot point. ;)
That's part of why I've had a hard time wrapping my head around it all.
An issue though is that the default lowest bulk for items is Negligible. Normally this isn't an issue but for Tiny that means that the absolute smallest amount of bulk any item they pick up can be is Light. So it's not hard to see just about anything weighing down a sprite when you use common sense within that context.
And it's hard to rate something as less than negligible... Infinitesimal? Do we then make a new bulk category like that JUST for Tiny creatures that acts like negligible for them?
That is the lowest tracked unit of bulk. As I pointed out above there exists items that are simply not tracked at all.
Reality is, if a GM feels the need to assign bulk to grains of sand or each louse you have on you. That is a GM issue. Otherwise negligible items are tangibly sized objects and bulk is still an abstraction, I know you hate its handwavey nature but it is what it is and trying to force arbitrary absolute scales on it is futility.
That is the lowest tracked unit of bulk. As I pointed out above there exists items that are simply not tracked at all.
Are there? What items that have an actual physical form have a bulk not tracked? For instance, a rune isn't a separate physical existence of it's own.
Otherwise negligible items are tangibly sized objects and bulk is still an abstraction, I know you hate its handwavey nature but it is what it is and trying to force arbitrary absolute scales on it is futility.
We aren't talking very big items listed as - bulk like chalk, twigs, and ear plugs. Sure there is a limit but that's going to be a personal one. IMO, if there is a reason for collecting sand, that's enough of a reason for it to be counted against bulk.
IMO, if there is a reason for collecting sand, that's enough of a reason for it to be counted against bulk.
How many grains of sand is it necessary to carry to reach L bulk?
IMO, if there is a reason for collecting sand, that's enough of a reason for it to be counted against bulk.How many grains of sand is it necessary to carry to reach L bulk?
For a sprite? 1. For others? "an item weighing less than a few ounces is negligible" and "Items of negligible Bulk don’t count toward Bulk unless you try to carry vast numbers of them, as determined by the GM." 1 grain of said is clearly less than "a few ounces", which is the definition of Negligible bulk: but much like the question of how to figure out the bulk of arrows, would you count it by grain or container before you convert it for Tiny? As there is no order of operation, both a single grain of sand and a pouch of sand weighing a few ounces both count as L bulk for a sprite. ;)
|
I don't know why people think you could carry an "infinite" amount of stuff, like coins, by having them in different containers. If you have two bags of 999 coins it is not negligible for both. It would be 1 because you have 1998 coins. Two more and you're at 2. You count every like item you're carrying together for the sake of bulk regardless of what containers they're in. For sand, at some point you stop counting individual grains and just go with how much bulk you have. You wouldn't say "I have 41,235 grains of sand, and since a grain of sand is negligible it doesn't weigh anything!" you would just say "I have a L bulk of sand."
I don't know why people think you could carry an "infinite" amount of stuff, like coins, by having them in different containers.
I don't know why people wouldn't think that.
If you have two bags of 999 coins it is not negligible for both.
The way bulk works if you have 1, 2 or 50 negligible items, they do not impact bulk, so why would multiple items that DO NOT even have negligible bulk then impact bulk?
It would be 1 because you have 1998 coins.
That all depends on the order of operation. Take sprites and arrows once. If they have 10 arrows is that 1 bulk because each is L because negligible moves up to L, or does it stay L because 10 arrows are L bulk? Neither is wrong, JUST like how it is with coins.
Two more and you're at 2. You count every like item you're carrying together for the sake of bulk regardless of what containers they're in.
No, no you don't as I have shown. Depending in which order you count, it's quite possible to get a different total than if you count it in a different order.
For sand, at some point you stop counting individual grains and just go with how much bulk you have.
You could, but the game in NO way gives you any guidance on that past a weight total conversion for negligible and light [and just looking at creature bulk we can tell that they don't follow that]. And again, both counts are 100% correct.
You wouldn't say "I have 41,235 grains of sand, and since a grain of sand is negligible it doesn't weigh anything!" you would just say "I have a L bulk of sand."
Why not? I'd have to consider 41,235 grains a "vast amount" of sand to count it as L as per the guidance under negligible. I personally do not. Ask someone else and they might think it was vast but it's not a forgone conclusion where the cutoff is.
Take for instance an item that actually includes sand: Earthsight Box. It includes "contains a few handfuls of fine sand", each of which is approximately 400,000 grains so 1,200,000 minimum. There is also a fine wooden box, with hinges and a clasp of forged iron and the WHOLE thing is L. I'm super comfortable with 41,235 negligible bulk grains of sand when that means it's 1/10th a handful and IMO 1/10th a handful and vast aren't the same thing. ;P
|
|
I used that number because that's what came up when I looked up how many grains are in a pound of sand. A pound is L bulk. It's obviously going to be more or less depending on where you get the sand, but that's just what Google said.
Anyway, the rules are not in your favor here. The rules in bulk say nothing about what you're suggesting. The rules only say you add up the items you're carrying, making no mention of how you portion it into containers. The only mention of that is the backpack, and even then it's just ignoring the first 1 bulk. If you fill it with 1.9 bulk it only ignores the 1, not the 0.9. You can't place 9 L bulk items in a sack and claim the sack is only L bulk, so you should be able to carry a bunch of them. You have to add up all your items as if they were all in one container.
As for the arrows for a tiny creature, the weight given is for 10 arrows. Since the weight is ONLY given for 10 of them, it's assumed each one individually has no weight (this isn't the same as negligible, as stated above) Scaling down, 10 arrows are negligible, so a pixie can carry 100 arrows as 1 bulk just like a Medium creature can.