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The character is built around the idea of having a worg companion. For this to work I either need to be small or have the Undersized Mount feat from ACG (you can ride a mount that's the same size as you instead of it having to be one size larger). And then also take the Monstrous Mount feat. This character isn't about being fully optimized (obviously, because I'm sinking two feats into a having a worg instead of just having a regular companion). My first level will be cavalier, then the rest will be hunter. This gets me the best bang for my buck as any other class that meets the prerequisite for Monstrous Mount doesn't do so until level 4 (excluding samurai because cavalier works better). Also cavalier gets a bonus teamwork feat at first level due to tactician which works great for being a hunter since they share teamwork feats for free with their companion.
So because I want to be melee and have the worg companion, I'm going to be human with the Undersized Mount feat, as the small races have the wrong modifiers to make this work how I'd like (as in they don't get a +2 to str which I want since I won't be a full BAB class).
With that being said, here's the progression I have planned out. I'll start off with a wolf, then switch it over to worg once I hit 4.
Str: 16 (+2 human) = 18
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 13 (for combat expertise)
Wis: 12 (just high enough to get 2nd lvl spells with enough time to get a headband when I need it higher)
Cha: 8
lvl 1: Cavalier - Order of the Hammer (The Harrowing Handbook) (gives me acrobatics as a class skill (also knowledge local..) and +1 to jump checks and +str to jump checks) Also a free grapple/sunder vs the target of my challenge.
lvl 1:
Human bonus feat: Undersized Mount
Combat Expertise
cav 1 - Tactician: Coordinated Maneuvers (for wolf/worg tripping).
lvl 3:
Power Attack
Hunter 2: Precise Companion: Outflank
lvl 4:
Hunter 3: Teamwork Feat: Pack Flanking
--retrain Power Attack to Monstrous Mount (I want this as soon as possible since having a worg is the whole point of this character)
lvl 5:
Power Attack
lvl 7:
???
Hunter 6: Teamwork Feat: ???
lvl 9:
???
lvl 10:
Hunter 9: Teamwork Feat: ???
lvl 11:
???
My spells I'll take Lead Blades and then stuff to cast on my companion to make him better.
Since my pet is a worg with a high intelligence (well, high for an animal) he'll qualify for any feat that he meets the prereqs for right away. Though that probably won't matter. I plan on taking, (2nd) weapon focus (bite), (8th) Improved Natural Attack (bite), (10th) Vital Strike.
I'm not sure what to take for its first and fifth level feats..
Also, as you can see I haven't planned on the second half of its life..
Other thoughts: I don't really know what Teamwork Feats to take. Escape Route seems incredibly useful and I could take that as my first level tactician teamwork feat because that could benefit my allies immensely (though only once a day if I waste a standard action on it). But I really want Tandem Trip in enough time that my worg can use it since he'll start with a trip attack at lvl 4 (when I get him).
Advice?
Broken Wing Gambit and Pair Opportunist is just plain nasty. I would take those at 6 and 9 (if not prior to as one of your regular progression feats).
Definitely keep Pack Flanking where it's at, you want that sucker ASAP. You might even consider picking up a combat maneuver since you already have the prerequisite Combat Expertise... perhaps Improved Disarm? Always a good one (some folks forget you can use it on wands, robs, and staves!) to use with PFS it seems.
One thing to remember is that Outflank and Paired Opportunists can't be used together.
They are both awesome individually, but when you're controlling the teamwork feats yourself, you can align them to dovetail with each other.
Faelyn already suggested Broken Wing Gambit and Paired Opportunists. Another nice combination is Outflank and Precise Strike. Precise Strike is especially useful at lower levels; Outflank becomes more effective once you can get a keen weapon or Improved Critical. (Improved Critical + Outflank + Bless Weapon is devastating against evil targets.)
I second Zedorland, I'm not quite sure why Outflank and Paired Opportunist would not work in tandem. Unless you are referring to the AoO generated by a Crit with Outflank activating Paired Opportunist, but even then I don't see why that would not work. If I'm missing something, please let me know!
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The core for melee seems to be:
Outflank
Pack Flanking
Paired OpportunistI've found Broken Wing Gambit to fit in with these quite well. Then you might want to think about Combat Reflexes, as you're potentially getting a lot of AoOs between trips, Broken Wing, and Outflank crits.
I would start with Tandem Trip over Coordinated Maneuvers. If you're doing it right, you shouldn't have any problem landing maneuvers (+4 Flanking all the time, +2 from Menacing, +6-8 if it's an AoO) so avoiding super low rolls is more important.
Lookout is a good option for another teamwork feat, especially with a Bodyguard Animal Companion. I haven't found a lot of places where Escape Route would payoff, you usually want to be planted between the melee and your backline, since you don't care about flanking.
I would consider Order of the Seal for free trips if you're going to have Tandem Trip.
If you're not as concerned with dipping, you might consider dumping Int and taking one level of Brawler(Wild Child) to open up Combat Expertise, and get you Martial Flexibility. Martial Flexibility is nice when you're mounted, as its a move action. You can't full attack on the charge, and your mount is taking the charge or move action, so you can pretty much always activate what you want on the way in.
What weapon are you looking at? Brawler would let you do a reach weapon for AoOs, and Unarmed strike for adjacent attacks. Or you could grab a high crit non-reach weapon. I'm becoming a big fan of Opalescent White Pyramid (Ioun Stone).
I don't plan on dipping into a different class as I want my animal companion to be fully leveled without having to take yet another feat for him (boon companion). I probably won't ever actually ride him, either. I'm proficient with any martial weapon. I was planning on going greatsword so I can abuse lead blades. Though a 1d10 glaive to 2d8 still isn't that bad. What specific weapon would you suggest?
I considered Order of the Seal it was my other top choice. Acrobatics as a class skill seemed too useful, though. I'll only ever get one challenge a day (and I'll probably only ever use it on a "boss") so it's really about linguistics vs acrobatics. And acrobatics just seemed more useful. Though you're right about Tandem Trip being more useful than Coordinated Maneuvers. It's actually what I've got on my sheet already, I'm not sure if I changed that at some point since posting this or just posted the wrong feat..
One thing to remember is that Outflank and Paired Opportunists can't be used together.
Why can't they be used together? If I crit, that triggers outflank and my ally gets an aoo which triggers paired opportunists, is that not how it works?
I did look into Precise Strike, but it just seemed like others would be more useful. Though I suppose it's no more useful than me casting a spell every combat to up my damage (such as lead blades).
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I don't plan on dipping into a different class as I want my animal companion to be fully leveled without having to take yet another feat for him (boon companion).Brawler(Wild Child) gives a full AC, so the level will still stack. You'll lose out on Hunter spell progression and Animal Focus (the bump at Hunter 8 is nice.) But you'll gain stat points and potentially open up options from Martial Flexibility and Improved Unarmed Strike.
Acrobatics is less useful as a class skill for you if you're mounted, because your mount will be making most Acrobatics rolls. But to each their own.
I prefer Reach weapons, but they're not as useful if your mount doesn't have reach. Fauchard is the obvious choice there. Even with Lead Blades, I'd take crit over damage. Remember every crit give you two more attacks (one from you and one from your AC) in addition to crit damage. So probably Elven Curved Blade or Falchion.
Normally, Outflank and Paired Opportunists can't be used together because one requires you to be adjacent and the other requires you to be flanking. I assume that's what Gwen means. Pack Flanking gets around this by flanking while adjacent, though.
I also haven't quite found Precise Strike to be worth it, and would take Improved/Greater Trip/Dirty Drick/Disarm over it for PFS levels.
I didn't look at Wild Child so I didn't realize they had an animal companion. I don't ever actually plan on riding my worg so that's why I thought Acrobatics would be useful. That being said, if I take a level in Brawler, then it's a class skill and then I could my other choice (and the one you proposed) of Order of the Seal for my cavalier level. I'm not really worried about my hunter casting. I really just chose hunter because of the teamwork abilities. Putting another class up front would delay Hunter Tactics (share teamwork abilities with your pet), though. It'll only put it back to 5th level so that's not the end of the world.
Focusing on my worg (wolf to start with), what would you suggest for its feats? It's going to get its trip attack on every attack, but unfortunately, it won't qualify for Improved Trip :(. I plan on taking, (2nd) weapon focus (bite), (8th) Improved Natural Attack (bite), (10th) Vital Strike. I don't have a plan for its first and fifth level feats (probably toughness at level 1 since it'll be in melee, maybe dodge..). Fortunately, his growth won't be stunted no matter which of these classes I pick.
Also, you're right about Brawler's Cunning. That would also give me three points back to spend which could raise my dex from 12-14 which would help with AC. And if I pick up combat reflexes (looks like I should), then that's a plus, too. And I don't actually lose any skills from my progression since I forgot I was human so the bonus skill per level nets out with the one I'd lose from dropping my int.
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If you're not planning on riding the worg, why take Undersized Mount?
I like the Bodyguard Archetype (particularly if you're picking up Lookout.) That's probably the first decision, as you can pick up Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, and In Harm's Way. That lets you use your Worg's HP to keep yourself or your companions from dying, since they often won't be attacked.
I don't think you need Weapon Focus(Bite) at all. The +4 from Outflank, +2 from Menacing, and likely +4 from the opponent being prone should have you well covered for accuracy.
It's boring, but I'd definitely start with Power Attack.
Some other options after that:
Step Up/Following Step/Step Up and Strike chain can be handy for pinning casters.
Combat Reflexes/Bodyguard/In Harm's Way as I mentioned.
Combat Reflexes/Improved Unarmed Strike/Vicious Stomp.
Improved Natural Attack, Vital Strike is a fine choice too.Looking at your build, tactically I would consider Toughness at level 1 instead of Undersized Mount, and retrain it instead of power attack. Or, if you really want to ride him at 4, taking Toughness at 1, Undersized Mount at 3, and retraining toughness at 4. Extra HP in those first few levels are useful, and Undersized Mount is probably a dead feat until 4-5. If you're retraining anyway, you should get some use out of that feat slot early.
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Reread the first post, I have to take undersized mount to have a worg companion. (or be small with no strength bonus and no bonus feat, so being human works best. So I just burn the human bonus feat on the feat that I wouldn't have to get if I were small, but the stats are better if human.)
I don't think I need toughness at lvl 1 with a d10 hit die and a 14 con (unless you meant for the pet). I don't want to "ride" him at 4, 4th level is the prereq for Monstrous Mount which is the feat that lets me have a worg. Undersized Mount instead of Power Attack at lvl let's me have a wolf companion (which is basically just a worg anyways) at lvl 1 instead of having to pick something else. I could pick power attack at lvl 1 instead of undersized mount but then I'd start off with a boring animal companion like a horse..
Like I said, it's not the most optimized build because I'm wasting resources (feats and class levels) to have a worg companion.
Combat reflexes is probably a good first choice for my companion. I'm pretty set on INA and Vital Strike for its final two feats. It can't take Step Up as its first feat because Animal Companions can't take a feat that has a BAB requirement at first level.
I didn't even know there were companion archetypes :(. When I went to get a copy of the Animal Archive my local store was out of it.. They won't have it til later this week. Looking at Bodyguard, though, it replaces Share Spells, which cavalier mounts don't get, so I don't think it's compatible. (though now that I say that it looks like d20pfsrd has a link specifically saying it is, I'm presuming it's from the author of the archetype, but I don't know who that is)
edit: Yeah, the bodyguard AC archetype looks awesome. Especially since it can act in the surprise round. And there's a teamwork feat that'll let me do that, too..
Also.. I have no idea how the post I quoted ended up in its own post 20 minutes before I responded..
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Ok tell me what you think-
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 13
Wis 13
Cha 7
Human +2 bonus to Str, Eye for talent, verminous hunter archetype
Mantis gets +2 Int for the Eye for talent, Feat Combat Expertise
By 4th level Outflank, Pack Flanking, Precise Strike, bump up Mantis to Int 3.
I am by no means an expert but going by some general assumptions:
Mantis gets 2 attacks with claws (plus grab)+ Precise Strike would be Pet Mantis getting 1d4+1d6 2x's per round with 2 grab opportunities (tack on leech vermin focus for an extra point of bleed damage) with a +4 to hit so long as we are flanking which got easier with Pack Flanking
Hunter with greatsword is getting 2d6 for the greatsword and an additional 1d6 for the Precise strike, if he had time to get cast lead blades he is getting 3d6 for the great sword.
If Hunter takes a 1 level dip into rogue he gets the 2d6 for the greatsword, 1d6 for precise strike and 1d6 for sneak attack. If he adds lead blades that another d6.
So to recap at 4th level the hunter in question (assuming he is flanking with his buddy) +8 to hit 3d6+6 dice of damage, with lead blades 4d6 dice of damage.
At 5th level with a 1 level dip into rogue you get another feat (power attack?) and now if flanking and power attacking you are at +7 to hit +8 to damage 4d6 (2d6 base, 1d6 precise strike, 1d6 sneak)dice of damage with the greatsword, 5d6 if using lead blades all the while the mantis pet is clawing and grabbing for 1d4+1d6 2x's per round.
Anything wrong with the build in question? Or any mistakes on my part?
Sorry for rambling. :)
also at an INT of 3 for the animal companion does it still need to learn tricks or can it just start learning the skirmish tricks available to it?
Finally does anyone know the bleed rules for the leech vermin focus? they seem to be worded rather strangely.
Leech: The creature gains a +2 competence bonus on grapple combat maneuver checks, and deals 1 point of bleed damage every time it succeeds at a grapple combat maneuver check to damage an opponent (this bleed stacks with itself ). These benefits increase to a +4 bonus and 3 points of bleed at 8th level, and a +6 bonus and 5 points of bleed at 15th level. Bleed damage from this ability does not stack with itself.
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I wouldn't dip rogue. You'll lose BaB, spellcasting, and have to take Boon companion to keep your pet up. If you really want a second Sneak Attack die, I'd take Brawler(Snakebite Striker), which *could* let you lower your Int so and still get Combat Reflexes. But I'd stick with straight Hunter, you're not likely to be hurting for damage.
For PFS, you definitely still need the regular tricks even for Int 3.
Wow, Leech is an editing fail. "this bleed stacks with itself...Bleed damage from this ability does not stack with itself." Classy.
Good point I didn't consider all I would be giving up for the sake of another d6 Most importantly the animal keeping pace.
And yeah on the wording of that leech ability, not to mention no one seems to know if the Skirmisher tricks are unlimited or limited by Wis/Level for the AC.
Thanks for the heads up on the tricks, let me ask any benefit to having the AC at INT 3 since tricks still need to be learned?
Normally, Outflank and Paired Opportunists can't be used together because one requires you to be adjacent and the other requires you to be flanking. I assume that's what Gwen means. Pack Flanking gets around this by flanking while adjacent, though.
That's exactly the problem: Paired Opportunists require you to be adjacent, and Outflank requires you to be flanking.
As you pointed out, Pack Flanking works to get around this, as does Gang Up and Underfoot Assault from the Mouser swashbuckler archetype. That's a lot of investment, though, and it's still situational. (Now, my husband and I are working on a Mouser/Holy Tactician duo that is shaping up quite nicely, but we had to center the build around this combo, which sounds like it's too focused for what you were asking for.)
As a general rule, I recommend that people double check the required positioning on all teamwork feats before you take them: you and your mount don't flank, normally, so you need to work around that.
I also haven't quite found Precise Strike to be worth it, and would take Improved/Greater Trip/Dirty Drick/Disarm over it for PFS levels.
Precise Strike is only 1d6, true, but if you're already planning to be flanking for Outflank (or if you're a rogue), an extra d6 per attack is a nice bonus. We have a couple of cavaliers in our PFS area who use Precise Strike as their tactician feat primarily because it's something that everyone can make use of, it's always useful for just a few rounds at a time (unlike Lookout or Shake It Off), and it's usable in most of the scenarios. At lower levels in PFS, there are very few creatures who are immune to precision damage, and adding a d6 to most of your front liners is really effective. That effectiveness does start to fade around level 7 or so, and it becomes situational after that.
As far a maneuvers go, these are very situational, and their value drops off significantly at higher levels. (I think the only combat maneuver that is consistently viable at all levels is Grapple.) Trip is size limited, flight restricted, and limb dependent. Disarm only works against creatures that happen to be using something you can take away from them. I love Dirty Trick, but because it's very GM-dependent, it's hard to say how useful it would be in PFS. (If you are in a small group and know all your possible GMs, Dirty Trick is much more viable. In a large group or at a convention, you're much more vulnerable to the opinions of a GM you don't know.)
One thing I really, really love about the Brawler is that it makes combat maneuver builds very effective. If you pick up all the underlying feats that are the prerequisites for the different maneuvers, you can use Martial Flexibility to tailor your maneuvers to the situation. I'm a big fan of maneuver builds, and I'm glad that there's an option to let players have more fun with these.
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Anything wrong with the build in question? Or any mistakes on my part?It won't work for me as the entire point around my character was wanting a worg companion. If you meant "this is a build for myself, how does it look?" then sorry, I didn't look at it that closely as it didn't have a worg in it.
Yeah I was just brainstorming my own build, didnt really think about a Worg build.
Normally, Outflank and Paired Opportunists can't be used together because one requires you to be adjacent and the other requires you to be flanking. I assume that's what Gwen means. Pack Flanking gets around this by flanking while adjacent, though.That's exactly the problem: Paired Opportunists require you to be adjacent, and Outflank requires you to be flanking.
Only the first part of Paired Opportunist (the +4 circumstance bonus on AOO) requires you to be adjacent: "Whenever you are adjacent to an ally who also has this feat, you receive a +4 circumstance bonus on attacks of opportunity against creatures that you both threaten. "
It goes on to say: "Enemies that provoke attacks of opportunity from your ally also provoke attacks of opportunity from you so long as you threaten them"