
Ixal |
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Ah! Excitement!
As far as a random nod toward the probability of weather mages blackmailing their country's nobility, I'd have to say in all probability there would be no cause for this as most likely they would be members of the nobility... Whether they use that status to blackmail each other though is another matter.
(Subnote, I've not been around here very long but I think Rysky is a woman, though it is too late now to correct pronouns.)
It would still at least introduce a new hierarchy among nobles, those that are weather mages and those that are not, if not shake up the entire ruling caste.
Nobility is a hereditary thing, but the ability to cast large scale magic is not. Do heirs who are not mages stay nobles? What about mages which are not nobility? That would give the PCs a reason to learn "NPC" magic.Having wizards be responsible for feeding the nation will likely turn said nation into a mageocracy.
So simply deciding that there are such mages because you don't want to bother with farming would fundamentally alter the power structure within a country.
But do not get to hung up on potential weather mages. "Normal" farming, meaning 90%+ of the population being farmers etc. also offers both flavor and potential plots. For example in the War for the Crown AP you could showcase how the war affects the normal person where even your "good" army has to ravage the countryside and force the farmers to give up their harvest as that is the only way to feed armies.
Or it makes enemy armies that rely on magical food production susceptible to sabotage, etc.
Not ignoring such details offers a lot of flavor and potential plots and also lets the players interact with the world in creative and indirect ways instead of just "hit it with a sharp metal stick reaaaally hard".

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True but there are so many other ways it could be pictured. AFAIC I am happy to just enjoy the setting we are given and rationalise it by believing there are many behind stage magics and marvels that are the reason why the setting as is makes perfect sense and that those uninterested in these, as most adventurers are, only focus on what impacts them directly.

CrystalSeas |
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Not ignoring such details offers a lot of flavor and potential plots and also lets the players interact with the world in creative and indirect ways instead of just "hit it with a sharp metal stick reaaaally hard".
So does running the world as it is written, without bolting on masses of idiosyncratic details.

Sibelius Eos Owm |
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Not ignoring such details offers a lot of flavor and potential plots and also lets the players interact with the world in creative and indirect ways instead of just "hit it with a sharp metal stick reaaaally hard".
To be fair, we're talking about a tabletop roleplaying game here. For most players, if they can solve a problem by hitting it with their character sheet (whether that involves metal sticks or balls of fire), typically they will. Worldbuilding is an activity primarily for the GM's enjoyment. If a particular group really enjoys engaging with the world on their own, more power to them, but in general it won't matter how complex and deep the world. When it comes down to it, the activity which encourages more player engagement in the world is in the narrative more than the worldbuilding. Not to say rich worldbuilding couldn't improve the experience for a group already so engaged--and with the patience or background knowledge to understand the implications of that depth.
It would still at least introduce a new hierarchy among nobles, those that are weather mages and those that are not, if not shake up the entire ruling caste.
Nobility is a hereditary thing, but the ability to cast large scale magic is not. Do heirs who are not mages stay nobles? What about mages which are not nobility? That would give the PCs a reason to learn "NPC" magic.
Having wizards be responsible for feeding the nation will likely turn said nation into a magocracy.
So simply deciding that there are such mages because you don't want to bother with farming would fundamentally alter the power structure within a country.
I mean to suggest that the nobility of a nation would most likely originally be drawn from people with power, which would naturally include mages of all kinds. The power itself may or may not be hereditary, much like the ability to fight for Earth aristocracy, but the wealth and privilege that is inherited would strongly improve the chances of any given noble child to become a powerful mage. Whether non-mage nobles remain nobility I feel like is a question for what happened in history to nobles who did not become warriors, albeit perhaps on a grander scale. Incidentally, speaking for Golarion, there actually is implication that the ability to perform powerful magic is indeed partly hereditary--there is some implication that the pharaohs of Osirion (traditionally clerics) inherit their magical ability from their predecessors.
(I don't mean to focus on the mages aspect, but it was the only real part of the original question that moved me to speak to it, aside from whatever the original debate was about)

Ixal |
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Ixal wrote:Not ignoring such details offers a lot of flavor and potential plots and also lets the players interact with the world in creative and indirect ways instead of just "hit it with a sharp metal stick reaaaally hard".So does running the world as it is written, without bolting on masses of idiosyncratic details.
And what exactly is written?
About this topic not much, meaning one has to assume that the world follows the normal laws of physics unless magic is involved. And that includes the problems of large scale transport, etc. which made a system similar to manoralism and the high agriculture zones around cities a requirement.Because as seen with the weather wizards, giving some half boiled explanation tends to have a huge impact on the world when you think about it.

CrystalSeas |
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And what exactly is written?
About this topic not much, meaning one has to assume that the world follows the normal laws of physics unless magic is involved. And that includes the problems of large scale transport, etc. which made a system similar to manoralism and the high agriculture zones around cities a requirement.
Because as seen with the weather wizards, giving some half boiled explanation tends to have a huge impact on the world when you think about it.
What is written is 10+ years of setting information; adventure paths, adventures, scenarios, rules, bounties, etc, etc.
One does not have to assume that the world follows the normal Earth laws of physics. Staff have told you over and over again that Golarion doesn't work the way you describe. The systems you imagine don't work the way you keep saying they do.
Obviously you've put a lot of thought into world-building for your own imaginary world. And, as staff has said over and over again, you're free to homebrew whatever worlds you want.
That, in fact, is one of the goals of PF2 rules: allow you to create whatever fantasy worlds you want to play in.
But you keep trying to impose your own vision of how things work on Golarion. No one else has to think about it at the depth that you do, nor play as if your vision is the "right" one. The rules you keep making up for Golarion simply don't apply to anyone else.

Ixal |
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One does not have to assume that the world follows the
normalEarth laws of physics. Staff have told you over and over again that Golarion doesn't work the way you describe
Golarion, as described, does not work at all. If you are content to run your games in a mere facade made for hack&slash, good for you. Although I wonder how you can truly immerse yourself in a setting where you should not think too hard about things, least they collapse.
On the other hand, if you want Golarion to work, then you have no choice than to fill in the gaps in the writing. And when you do that then Golarion does look a lot like earth because the systems in use were not created on a whim, but because they worked based on the constrains of the laws of nature, the same constrains Golarion has for the most part.

YawarFiesta |
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What kind of things are in a basic basket?
The basket of goods includes basic food and beverages such as cereal, milk, and coffee. It also includes housing costs, bedroom furniture, apparel, transportation expenses, medical care costs, recreational expenses, toys, and the cost of admissions to museums also qualify. Education and communication expenses are included in the basket's contents, and the government also includes other random items such as tobacco, haircuts, and funerals. - Investopedia
Basically, everything a typical person of a given location or region might consume pondered by how much they are expected to consume of each.
Humbly,
Yawar

Perpdepog |
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CrystalSeas wrote:Golarion, as described, does not work at all. If you are content to run your games in a mere facade made for hack&slash, good for you. Although I wonder how you can truly immerse yourself in a setting where you should not think too hard about things, least they collapse.One does not have to assume that the world follows the
normalEarth laws of physics. Staff have told you over and over again that Golarion doesn't work the way you describe
I get that you feel strongly about this point of view, and that with a page plus of back and forth on the subject you can get pretty heated over defending your position, but passive-aggressively attacking the intelligence of your opposition and, frankly, anyone who doesn't agree with your point of view isn't the way to get people onto your side.
On the other hand, if you want Golarion to work, then you have no choice than to fill in the gaps in the writing.
Given the number of people who have argued back that their worlds are operating just fine with or without gap-fillery, I'm not so sure this is as an absolute a statement as you're making it.
And when you do that then Golarion does look a lot like earth because the systems in use were not created on a whim, but because they worked based on the constrains of the laws of nature, the same constrains Golarion has for the most part.
Except for the magic, divine intervention, celestial/infernal/[insert outsider adjective here] intervention, the flawed concepts of how things like outer space work cropping up courtesy of the inclusion of the Lovecraft Mythos, more magic, some superscience space-whatsits, and more magic.

Ixal |
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Given the number of people who have argued back that their worlds are operating just fine with or without gap-fillery, I'm not so sure this is as an absolute a statement as you're making it.Ixal wrote:And when you do that then Golarion does look a lot like earth because the systems in use were not created on a whim, but because they worked based on the constrains of the laws of nature, the same constrains Golarion has for the most part.Except for the magic, divine intervention, celestial/infernal/[insert outsider adjective here] intervention, the flawed concepts of how things like outer space work cropping up courtesy of the inclusion of the Lovecraft Mythos, more magic, some superscience space-whatsits, and more magic.
You can make everything "work" by not thinking about it and never mentioning or interacting with it. Although I would argue that this is not really working. It also limits the actions of the PCs as entire areas of the setting are off limits.
And the discussion about weather wizards showed that just saying "its magic" does not work, because any magic, divine intervention, etc. as explanation why something still could work would have far reaching effects which would alter the setting and thus just create other off-limits sections.

CrystalSeas |
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Except for the magic, divine intervention, celestial/infernal/[insert outsider adjective here] intervention, the flawed concepts of how things like outer space work cropping up courtesy of the inclusion of the Lovecraft Mythos, more magic, some superscience space-whatsits, and more magic.
And monsters! Don't forget the monsters!

YawarFiesta |
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My 2 cents,
- It is heavily implied that Golarion works like the real world except when noted otherwise. For example, apples don't fall up in Golarion, and it was asumed that you would asume so and it doesn't needed to be explained.
- Golarion seems to be on the verge of an industrial revolution rather than something like a proper medieval fantansy setting. Maybe after the next timeskip.
- Something flashy like weather wizards would be metioned on the campaing setting material so if food production around a city doesn't match the expected comsumption then it is implied there is more mundane or les flashy answer. Again, they may import grain from their neighbors (Geb has "industialized" agriculture), there is some magic involed (a local festival or rite functions as a plant growth ritual) or handwaving (these potatoes aren't really potatoes, but Golarioni(?) potatoes, a more bountiful and otherwise identical facsimile).
- PCs are supposed to be exceptional, so most NPCs in the world should be around level 1 and NPCs of higher should be progresively rarer. Otherwise you run into oddties like, why didn't the level 8 town guard took care of kobold problem?
- While Golarion works perfectly well as a spring board for adventures, there are many details that are left to the GMs discrecion to be filled that might be relevant to some campaings or inspire plot hooks. There is no badwrongfun to fill those details many of us find that fun. It is also fine ignore them altogether if you wish.
- Establishing rules and limitations can help the creative process by infering details about the possible actions and motivations the different actors. Otherwise, we wouldn't be buying books full of them describing the workings of the campaing setting. Note that those can be freely ignored when necessary in order to provide a better game.
Humbly,
Yawar