Vital Shot

[Knaughts]

I like the feel of Way of the Sniper, but given how hard it is for ranged combatants to make enemies flat-footed, I'm not sure how often Vital Shot will be practical. The Sniper is already spending an action every turn to reload; if they also need an action to Hide, and two actions for Vital Shot, they don't really have time to use it with any regularity.

Am I missing some other way to make distant enemies flat-footed? Or is Vital Shot intended to be situational?

[Karmagator]

I've go no idea either.

This basically screams level 6 way feat instead of the current one. One action to reload + hide/sneak.

[Dubious Scholar]

Make a Distraction sets it up, but requires CHA investment.

[Sagiam]

Smoke Screen gives you concealment, and running reload can be used with the sneak action.

Two-action Smoke screen. One action running reload to any nearby cover before the smoke wears off. Make your stealth check for the sneak and become hidden again. Rinse and repeat as needed to give enemies flat-footed.

[Laki7z]

Or you know, have allies to set you up if you dislike hide action that much. They can trip, cast spells, use some other class features (swordcrit, aggressive block, unbalancing finisher as example).
You can snipe with a pistol and use pistol twirl to feint

Starting hidden/undetected is not too hard

[Knaughts]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Make a Distraction sets it up, but requires CHA investment.

Yep, good callout, but it doesn't really improve the situation. Like Hide, Make a Distraction costs an action per turn, so the Gunslinger still can't use Vital Shot very often.

Sagiam wrote:

Smoke Screen gives you concealment, and running reload can be used with the sneak action.

Smoke Screen grants Concealment, but Concealment doesn't grant Hidden, nor does it make enemies Flat-Footed. That means you can't use Vital Shot, and you can't Sneak (Sneak does nothing unless you first have Hidden).

Laki7z wrote:

Or you know, have allies to set you up if you dislike hide action that much. They can trip, cast spells, use some other class features (swordcrit, aggressive block, unbalancing finisher as example).

That's true, but it feels bad to rely on teammates to pick up specific Feats (or crit) to enable one of your core class features. Especially since the easiest way to apply Flat-Footed, Trip, gives a penalty to ranged attacks.

Quote:

You can snipe with a pistol and use pistol twirl to feint

This still takes an action, so we can't use Vital Shot consistently. Using a pistol also goes strongly outside the intended theme of this Way.

Quote:

Starting hidden/undetected is not too hard

True, it's relatively easy to start the combat with a Vital Shot. Do you think the intent behind Vital Shot is for it to be used only once or twice per combat? That wasn't my impression, but if that was the designer's intent, this all makes a lot more sense.

[Laki7z]

Knaughts wrote:

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Make a Distraction sets it up, but requires CHA investment.

Yep, good callout, but it doesn't really improve the situation. Like Hide, Make a Distraction costs an action per turn, so the Gunslinger still can't use Vital Shot very often.

Sagiam wrote:

Smoke Screen gives you concealment, and running reload can be used with the sneak action.

Smoke Screen grants Concealment, but Concealment doesn't grant Hidden, nor does it make enemies Flat-Footed. That means you can't use Vital Shot, and you can't Sneak (Sneak does nothing unless you first have Hidden).

Laki7z wrote:

Or you know, have allies to set you up if you dislike hide action that much. They can trip, cast spells, use some other class features (swordcrit, aggressive block, unbalancing finisher as example).

That's true, but it feels bad to rely on teammates to pick up specific Feats (or crit) to enable one of your core class features. Especially since the easiest way to apply Flat-Footed, Trip, gives a penalty to ranged attacks.

Quote:

You can snipe with a pistol and use pistol twirl to feint

This still takes an action, so we can't use Vital Shot consistently. Using a pistol also goes strongly outside the intended theme of this Way.

Quote:

Starting hidden/undetected is not too hard

True, it's relatively easy to start the combat with a Vital Shot. Do you think the intent behind Vital Shot is for it to be used only once or twice per combat? That wasn't my impression, but if that was the designer's intent, this all makes a lot more sense.

trip does not automatically reduce your ranged hit chance, but prone condition allows to take an action to get greater cover.

Roleplaying games are teamwork games, some people like to set up, and flatfooted more or less always cost an action so I don't get your complaint. Vital shot is important to get of once, bleed does not stack with itself. Every other class have similar issues if not the rogue even worse. Flanking usually costs a movement, risks reactions and does not work against all enemies.
I've had enough rogues to know how hard it is at times to setup flatfooted but when they do, the players feel rewarded.

You will have ghost shot at higher levels and shooters aim avaible too, risky reload and whatever to use.

Vital shot gives alot compared to other 2 action attacks and are balanced with flatfooted req.
Should perhaps stack similar to power attack on the bonus weapon dice, but the bleed is its strong point

[Knaughts]

Laki7z wrote:

trip does not automatically reduce your ranged hit chance, but prone condition allows to take an action to get greater cover.

Absolutely correct, my bad.

Laki7z wrote:

Roleplaying games are teamwork games, some people like to set up, and flatfooted more or less always cost an action so I don't get your complaint.

Right, I have no problem with Flat-Footed usually costing an action. But there's a reason you don't see many ranged rogues: flanking is the easiest way to get your target Flat-Footed.

Regardless, I think you've mostly convinced me. I think Vital Shot is intended to be used at the start of the fight, and opportunistically when an ally makes an enemy Flat-Footed. Gunslingers are too busy reloading to do that sort of thing, but their allies often have an action to spare.