Did we settle on an answer for non-Mythic?
Because I've basically never paid attention to mythic rules as I've never met anyone who wanted to run a mythic game, although plenty of players who salivate at the chance.
Then I would consider adding a level of Hooded Champion Ranger (and adjusting accordingly probably by taking one fewer AA or EK levels) so that you can resolve bow attacks against touch AC and focus on Str for more damage rather than needing a lot of Dex to hit.The problem with adding a non-arcanist level is that then the character loses 9th-level spells, without replacing two of the feats for Favored Prestige Class/Prestigious Spellcaster.
Right, but you can get around needing 9th level spells (with a trait if nothing else). Also, is Arcanist providing something essential to the build? or is it just your arcane caster preference? Because switching to wizard gets you to 9th level magic. And, taking a martial weapons class opens up all the other race options for more synergistic ability score bonuses or other things.
Since the progression is +17 BAB, plus the fact that Weapon Focus and Mythic heroism (increases bonus to +4 and includes damage rolls) counteract the -5 from Deadly Aim, it's not like the character should have a lot of trouble hitting with just enhancement bonuses, Dex, greater bracers of archery, etc.; even before using Surge and/or Quickened true strike. With the additional ability score increases from mythic tiers (+2 each even tier), you can probably add +4 or +6 to starting Str as well as using a belt of physical might (Str, Dex) +6 or belt of physical perfection +6, so it's not like Str is going to be hurting too much (assuming a 12 Str to start and only +4 Str from mythic, that's still a 22 Str with a belt for [+6 multiplied by 4] or +24 damage using Vital Strike (Mythic)/Greater Vital Strike).
But if you didn't need Dex at all, you could start with a 20 Str which is +4 more Str bonus or +16 more damage and could be more depending on where you were putting your leveling bonuses and if you get inherent bonuses.
Did we settle on an answer for non-Mythic?
Because I've basically never paid attention to mythic rules as I've never met anyone who wanted to run a mythic game, although plenty of players who salivate at the chance.
I think it still ends up being some version of arcane archer.
Right, but you can get around needing 9th level spells (with a trait if nothing else). Also, is Arcanist providing something essential to the build? or is it just your arcane caster preference? Because switching to wizard gets you to 9th level magic. And, taking a martial weapons class opens up all the other race options for more synergistic ability score bonuses or other things.Then I would consider adding a level of Hooded Champion Ranger (and adjusting accordingly probably by taking one fewer AA or EK levels) so that you can resolve bow attacks against touch AC and focus on Str for more damage rather than needing a lot of Dex to hit.The problem with adding a non-arcanist level is that then the character loses 9th-level spells, without replacing two of the feats for Favored Prestige Class/Prestigious Spellcaster.
Arcanist (blood arcanist) is for the Orc bloodline arcana (+1 per die on damaging spells) and the ability to learn any sorcerer/wizard spell. Also, Metamixing allows the character to add metamagic "on the fly" to spells that have already been prepared with metamagic. With Intensify Spell increasing the damage cap on cone of cold from 15d6 to 20d6 (the mythic version increases damage dice to d10s), that's an extra 20 points of energy damage from the spell (the Channel Power mythic path ability increases that to 30 extra points of damage, as well as increasing the rest of the spell damage by +50%).
It comes down to a question of total damage vs. arrow damage alone. As I demonstrated, even the "less synergistic" ganzi starting with 12 Str is still doing 8d6+116+2d6*+1d6** with single shots all day (or as long as the arrows hold out), with minimal equipment for a 20th level character and two spells (one long-term, one medium-term); as well as the ability to add an extra 330 (save vs. half) to the target and a 60 ft cone several times per day.
Note the Arcane Metamastery path ability (which was in the progression, but not detailed) allows use of a metamagic feat that increases spell level by 0 or 1 (like Intensified Spell) on any spell, instead of a specific spell, without actually increasing the spell level for 10 rounds per use. So, you can follow up the Imbued Mythic Intensified Maximized cone of cold using an 8th-level slot with an Imbued Mythic Intensified (15d10+15) Maximized fireball for an extra 165 points of damage (247 points with Channel Power) using a 6th-level slot. And the character is still able to cast timestop, wish, etc.; which is more important, IMO, than +16 or so extra damage on the single arrow shot.
*- anarchic, axiomatic, holy, or unholy
**- cold, fire, or electricity
I think it still ends up being some version of arcane archer.Did we settle on an answer for non-Mythic?
Because I've basically never paid attention to mythic rules as I've never met anyone who wanted to run a mythic game, although plenty of players who salivate at the chance.
Or hinterlander. Hinterlander, as a 3/4 BAB PrC, ends up with a lower BAB, but can gain Pinpoint Targeting as a bonus feat without needing the prerequisites. If you are looking for a more Str-focused than Dex-focused archer, it might work better after about 12th level or so.
Arcanist (blood arcanist) is for the Orc bloodline arcana (+1 per die on damaging spells) and the ability to learn any sorcerer/wizard spell. Also, Metamixing allows the character to add metamagic "on the fly" to spells that have already been prepared with metamagic. With Intensify Spell increasing the damage cap on cone of cold from 15d6 to 20d6 (the mythic version increases damage dice to d10s), that's an extra 20 points of energy damage from the spell (the Channel Power mythic path ability increases that to 30 extra points of damage, as well as increasing the rest of the spell damage by +50%).Right, but you can get around needing 9th level spells (with a trait if nothing else). Also, is Arcanist providing something essential to the build? or is it just your arcane caster preference? Because switching to wizard gets you to 9th level magic. And, taking a martial weapons class opens up all the other race options for more synergistic ability score bonuses or other things.Then I would consider adding a level of Hooded Champion Ranger (and adjusting accordingly probably by taking one fewer AA or EK levels) so that you can resolve bow attacks against touch AC and focus on Str for more damage rather than needing a lot of Dex to hit.The problem with adding a non-arcanist level is that then the character loses 9th-level spells, without replacing two of the feats for Favored Prestige Class/Prestigious Spellcaster.
So the answer to my question is "no, Arcanist isn't essential, but a bloodline arcana is, so Wizard still isn't an option." Got it. That was all you needed to say. I know how to do math. Metamixing is convenient not essential and everything else there is available to Wizards and Sorcerers.
It comes down to a question of total damage vs. arrow damage alone.
No, it comes down to needing a bloodline arcana and me overlooking it. Has anyone ever told you that you overexplain things which gives the impression that you either didn't really pay attention to what I said or assumed I'm stupid?
And the character is still able to cast timestop, wish, etc.; which is more important, IMO, than +16 or so extra damage on the single arrow shot.
+16 is the minimum damage increase, and I would agree with you if the exercise weren't "Maximising [sic] single arrow archer damage", so...
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You know. Some people just explain things so that they are made clear. There's lots of reasons someone may do this. Calling them stupid or assuming they think you're stupid just makes you look like an a$$. Considering how argumentive you were earlier I'm guessing maybe you don't just look the part. Have a little awareness about why someone speaks the way they do. It may be trauma related
You know. Some people just explain things so that they are made clear. There's lots of reasons someone may do this. Calling them stupid or assuming they think you're stupid just makes you look like an a$$. Considering how argumentive you were earlier I'm guessing maybe you don't just look the part. Have a little awareness about why someone speaks the way they do. It may be trauma related
You know... I didn't call anyone stupid. I only explained how I was made to feel. Telling people they're asses for communicating themselves might make you an ass. But considering your tone, I imagine you often condescend to people.
I have a communication disorder actually. I find it extremely hard to explain myself. But saying "you didn't really pay attention" implies a lack of intelligence no? I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm just pissed off when people assume that people are trying to be mean when they very well could just have some manner of disorder of truama that influences their communication method
I have a communication disorder actually. I find it extremely hard to explain myself.
Okay. Now that I know, I can adjust accordingly. If you don't tell people, though, you can't really expect anything from them.
But saying "you didn't really pay attention" implies a lack of intelligence no?
Not at all. I was implying a lack of consideration. Plenty of intelligent people are inconsiderate. I'm not even sure there's any correlation between the two.
I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm just pissed off when people assume that people are trying to be mean when they very well could just have some manner of disorder of truama that influences their communication method
Well, in the future, I'll know that about you and won't take offense to any perceived tone. It's understandable that that pisses you off, but if what you expect from other people then is for them not to express how you make them feel, you aren't really being considerate of their feelings. That seems unreasonable.
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Why don't we all just try to believe people are posting with best intentions until it's very obvious they aren't.
The lack of tone or even familiarity with someone can easily cause us to misunderstand someone's written communication.
I'm surprised I didn't see this thread the first time around. It seems that some sort of ranged spell strike with Disintegrate would be the hardest hitting single arrow. You could add the arcana for empower and maximized to it at the same time.
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I couldn't help but play around a bit when this thread popped back up. The numbers completely depend on what parameters you set for yourself. I decided to do level 20, and give myself a round of prep, but make it completely PFS legal since that's a very clear ruleset and isn't going to be pulling in unbalanced 3rd-party material.
I didn't fully build it out, but I came up with a Samsaran Gunslinger (bolt ace) 5/Warpriest (Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain) 15. Needed a round of prep, but came up with:
18d8 + 4d6 + 166 normal (190-334)
18d8 + 4d6 + 246 crit (17-20) (270-414)
Cast greater named bullet on a LARGE bolt well in advance.
Prep round: gravity bow, fervorcast righteous might
Attack round: fervorcast divine power, move action (rapid reload) the large bolt into the crossbow, attack.
A large, gravity bow crossbow bolt does 3d8 damage. Greater Vital Strike makes that 12d8. Static damage came to +42. Greater named bullet automatically threatens a crit (5 levels of Bolt Ace makes a crossbow a x3 weapon, which makes that total 18d8 + 126) and adds an extra 40 (2xCL) damage after that. If the attack roll is a threat without the named bullet (17-20 with Improved Critical) then the named bullet damage also gets multiplied on the crit.
The other 4d6 is corrosive, flaming, frost, shock.
I have a ton of feats left, and I think I might actually do better with a bow despite the lost dex-to-damage of the bolt ace. That's the next thing to try.
If I can figure out how to give a weapon master fighter the ability to cast named bullet as a quickened spell, that's going to be the ultimate "no prep" character.
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Played around some more with different parameters. Level 20, no mythic, but any other Paizo material allowed. And no pre-buffing at all. What can I do in just one round? By using some of the less common subsystems, I came up with:
27d8+346
1) This is a Weapon Master Fighter with the Focused Weapon (do damage as a warpriest's favored weapon) Advanced Weapon Training.
2) I used the guided weapon property.
3) I designed a weapon using the rules from Weapon Master's handbook. Specifically, a bow with a x4 critical modifier. Only a 1d3 weapon, but I don't care because of Focused Weapon. Called it a "plinkbow."
4) Here's where I reached where no sane GM would allow. I used the custom race builder rules in ARG. Specifically I wanted a large creature with greater named bullet as a spell-like ability. While I was at it I boosted my Wisdom up as high as I could. I did limit myself to an Advanced (20-point) race.
5) Took the feat Quickened Spell-like ability.
A large 20th-level warpriest sacred weapon does 3d8. 20th level weapon master increases the critical modifier by 1. And can also increase the critical modifier by 1 more three times a day. Add up all the feats and I'm at
3d8+44 (x6) add in Greater Vital Strike and Devastating Strike for
12d8+50 (x6)
Named bullet automatically threatens a crit, and Weapon Master 20 automatically confirms threats. So
27d8+300 +40 (named bullet) + 6 (killer trait)
+200 more if I happen to roll a 19 or 20 on the attack roll.
Custom race - advanced fighter (weapon master) 20
N Large humanoid (giant)
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Ranged +5 guided second chance plinkbow +43 (12d8+50/×5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th; concentration +19)
1/day—quickened greater spell-like ability (greater named bullet)
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 42, Cha 8
Base Atk +20; CMB +21; CMD 33 (42 vs. disarm, 42 vs. sunder)
Feats Advanced Weapon Training, Deadly Aim, Devastating Strike, Greater Vital Strike, Greater Weapon Focus (plinkbow), Greater Weapon Specialization (plinkbow), Improved Critical (plinkbow) Improved Vital Strike, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (greater spell-like ability), Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (plinkbow), Weapon Specialization (plinkbow)
Other Gear +5 guided plinkbow, belt of incredible dexterity +6, gloves of dueling, headband of inspired wisdom +6
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Special Abilities
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Deadly Aim -6/+12 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deadly Critical: Plinkbow (3/day) (Ex) Increase the critical damage multiplier of your chosen weapon
Devastating Strike Deal extra damage when using Vital Strike bonus
Focused Weapon (Plinkbow) (Ex) Can deal damage as per Sacred Weapon class feature with chosen weapon.
Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Spell-Like Ability, Greater) Spell-like ability is cast as a swift action up to 3/day.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Mastery (Longbow) (Ex) Chosen weapon always confirms critical threats, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training +7: Longbow (Ex) +7 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.
I know I'm forgetting a lot of easy boosters - I've got 10 feats and tons of money leftover. And of course could do way more with time to buff. But that was fun to do.
Belafon, it's interesting from a "these are technically legal options within the context of the game at large" viewpoint, but if you tried to bring such a character to a table where I'm the GM, the items you outline in points 2 through 4 wouldn't remotely be allowed.
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Belafon, it's interesting from a "these are technically legal options within the context of the game at large" viewpoint, but if you tried to bring such a character to a table where I'm the GM, the items you outline in points 2 through 4 wouldn't remotely be allowed.
I think that was covered by my comments, especially "Here's where I reached where no sane GM would allow." :)
Weapon Design rules are kinda fun and not particularly powerful. Until you start playing around with crit range and multiplier. Race Builder rules just shouldn't be a player option, period.I dabbled in a couple of other builds after this. A myrmidarch magus casting a Quickened named bullet and then spellstriking with a Maximized, Empowered, Intensified disintegrate was frankly ludicrous. Particularly after I took a dip in sorcerer for the orc bloodline. Make the save or take 750 + (0.5 x 100d6) points of damage just from disintegrate...
Named bullet is the star of any of these builds because it automatically threatens a crit.
I missed some math :(
L20 Regular Hit, 1 bolt: 4d10 (Crossbow) + 4d6 (Expended Psionic Focus: Improved Psionic Shot) + +16d10 (Greater Vital Strike) + 5d6 (Master Technique) + 13 + -4 to 1 select ability [CON] = 44-269 Dmg
I've just skimmed these so forgive me if I've missed something, but shouldn't Greater Vital Strike be +12d10?
I've just skimmed these so forgive me if I've missed something, but shouldn't Greater Vital Strike be +12d10?I missed some math :(
L20 Regular Hit, 1 bolt: 4d10 (Crossbow) + 4d6 (Expended Psionic Focus: Improved Psionic Shot) + +16d10 (Greater Vital Strike) + 5d6 (Master Technique) + 13 + -4 to 1 select ability [CON] = 44-269 Dmg
Nope
L20 Marksman (Psionic Class; Dreamscarred Press) with the Sniper Style [https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/marksman/marksman-combat-styles/] increases the base damage of the weapon when using Augmented Shot ability, in this case 1d10 becomes 4d10 and Greater Vital Strike multiplies BASE damage by 4
Sorry I didn't make myself clear. Yes you get 16d10 damage, but what you've written there is 4d10 PLUS 16d10. Where is the extra 4d10 coming from in that scenario?
Just to make sure I'm being clear, let's ignore all the other parts of your equation:
L20 Regular Hit, 1 bolt:+ 4d6 (Expended Psionic Focus: Improved Psionic Shot) ++ 5d6 (Master Technique) + 13 + -4 to 1 select ability [CON] = 44-269 Dmg
You've double-counted the original 4d10. You put it in as itself, but it's also included as part of Greater Vital Strike.
4d10 = Regular attack
4d10 + 4d10 = 8d10 = Vital Strike
4d10 + 4d10 + 4d10 = 12d10 = Improved Vital Strike
4d10 + 4d10 + 4d10 + 4d10 = 16d10 = Greater Vital Strike
So it should either be: "4d10 (Crossbow) + 12d10 (Greater Vital Strike)" or just "16d10 (Crossbow Greater Vital Strike)". The Total damage dice from the Crossbow on a Greater Vital Strike should be 16d10, but what you have is 4d10 + 16d10 = 20d10.
That's unless I'm missing some other ability somewhere? I'm fully willing to believe I am, I'm just checking your working basically =P
Oh yeah, it's still great - much better than my build was gonna be - just wanted to check I wasn't missing something.
Glad I could help =)