What the Heck Happens During a Champion's React?!

[Firehazurd]

So the three Good aligned Champion Reaction abilities give dr to an ally if they are damaged (or potentially grabbed/grappled) and as long as the ally and the enemy are both within 15 feet of the Champion. However, these abilities only have the "Champion" trait and not a lot of guidance is given for what is actually happening.

If the ability is essentially magic, why not give it the magical/divine trait. If that's the case, does this ability fail in anti-magic zones or places where the gods have no power? If it's divine protection, why can't the champion use it on themselves?

If this ability is some kind of physical intervention, why can the Champion do it from so far away? Also, since Grabbed, Grappled, Immobilized and Restrained only impact actions with Manipulate, Move and Attack traits, does that mean a Champion can do this reaction even if they're neck deep in cement? Even if they're blind?

If the champion is shouting "Duck!" then would being under the effects of Silence deny you this action?

What do you imagine is actually occurring when a champion enacts Liberating Step? Help!

[Otiamros]

You're overthinking it.

It has no traits because it explicitly doesn't and shouldn't have those restrictions you are concerned about.

The effect is essentially a super-nonmagical aura with a limited (forgive the term) "proc rate".

The "fiction" of the move is whatever is appropriate and in character at the moment it happens. This should generally have a "default" effect which I would imagine most champion players would decide on before the game.

For example my redeemer has the Shield cantrip as an innate divine spell from her ancestry, but I flavored it to instead be of shared origin to her Glimpse reaction.

They aren't the same exactly, the cantrip obviously has many extra limitations, but in her story the cantrip came first and the reaction was an extension of that same talent - practiced and honed to be usable to defend others with much greater frequency and potency.

The fact that it is not a spell, and isn't even explicitly of divine origin, is because the ability is intrinsic to MY champion. Another redeemer's glimpse will be mechanically identical (feats excluded), but their fiction should be entirely their own.

[Claxon]

The reaction doesn't have the trait, so none of those things apply.

How does it work? We don't really know. But it's not magic, it's not physical. It's something beyond all that, that's not intended to be shutdown because the devs already put the limits on it they wanted it to have.

[Firehazurd]

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully happy to make my own rulings on this for the champion playing right now, and to make entirely different rulings for future champions based on what fits the character and the story best. But this is also like a "toast always lands on the buttered side" level phenomena! Also, why is the LE Champion the only one that has a bunch of traits on their reaction (aside from the damage scaling), when the NG reaction causes the enemy to "hesitate under the weight of sin." Is a construct really going to react to something emotional like that? I'd say no if I had a NG Champion using the ability, but technically there's no reason why not (other than GM ruling being the rule).

Personally, I'm not actually going crazy over this or anything, it just feels like these abilities never got fully transitioned from placeholder balance status to fully realized actions for the champion. Thankfully, my players are typically down for whatever I say is the situation. I'm mainly pointing out an odd idiosyncrasy and seeing what other GMs (and players) think about it!

[iNickedYerKnickers]

[Bad Guy] Attacks the party's healer.

[Champion] Sees the attack coming and ShoulderChecks/Shoves/KicksALeg/DeflectsTheBlowWithHisSword/Etcetera causing the blow to glance off the target, preventing the party healer from taking the full force of the attack.

[Firehazurd]

Yes! That's a perfectly good scenario, except the ability doesn't require the champion move closer than the 15 ft, and has neither the move, attack nor manipulate traits which means the champion can perform the reaction even while immobilized/restrained/grabbed.

[Kasoh]

Seelah: You know what "divine intervention" is?
Valeros : Yeah, I think so. That means God came down from Heaven and stopped the bullets.
Seelah : Yeah, man, that's what it means.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Firehazurd wrote:

What do you imagine is actually occurring when a champion enacts Liberating Step?

The same thing that happens during Battle Medicine. Abstract, game-mechanic shenanigans.

But to properly answer your questions:

Quote:

If the ability is essentially magic, why not give it the magical/divine trait. If that's the case, does this ability fail in anti-magic zones or places where the gods have no power? If it's divine protection, why can't the champion use it on themselves?

It's not magic, though. Magic has a trait. Things which are Magic or Magical have the relevant trait. This ability does not have that trait, so it's not that. This means it doesn't automatically fail or not work in anti-magic fields, nor can it be counterspelled or counteracted. It's also not Divine because it's not magic, which Divine is a subset of, meaning it's not an applicable situation. Even if it was, there are plenty of things you can do to others that you can't do to yourself, and those restrictions are equally arbitrary in their application.

Quote:

If this ability is some kind of physical intervention, why can the Champion do it from so far away? Also, since Grabbed, Grappled, Immobilized and Restrained only impact actions with Manipulate, Move and Attack traits, does that mean a Champion can do this reaction even if they're neck deep in cement? Even if they're blind?

It is and it isn't. One of those abilities actually is, and it actually states what happens in that situation. Retributive Strike only permits a free strike when the enemy is in your reach, otherwise you don't get one. The Ranged Reprisal feat lets you step when you make that reaction, meaning you can put an enemy in your reach. However, the resistance (which applies to all forms of damage the target takes, meaning multiple types of damage are all affected by that value equally between the sources) goes off regardless of whether you strike or not. It requires an action (or more accurately, reaction) on the Champion's part, but it's not necessarily (entirely) physical.

As for those conditions, that depends. The ones you mention with Manipulate, Move, or Attack do not apply to the reaction because it does not have any of those traits. That being said, certain abilities do have subordinate actions (basically, actions within an ability referencing the generic action you can take), which possess those traits, and in that case, it applies to the subordinate actions only, not the ability as a whole. So, Retributive Strike with Ranged Reprisal permits the resistance, step, and strike activities. The resistance is not a subordinate action, meaning it's not affected by any of this. The step and strike parts are, so they are affected. For being blind, you still need line of sight to the targets required by the ability, meaning unless you know their location (being hidden or not), you can't target them with the ability.

Quote:

If the champion is shouting "Duck!" then would being under the effects of Silence deny you this action?

Again, traits matter, as this was a similar argument used in the pre-errata Battle Medicine argument. It does not possess Auditory traits, which means effects which work on Auditory traits (such as silence or countersong) do not apply to them. This also means that this reflavoring isn't really applicable to both this situation, or any situation.

As others have stated, it's otherworldly intervention, in the same vein of Oracle curses and Witch patrons and the like. Trying to understand it precisely drives you mad to the point of insanity. Just see it for what it is; a cool defensive ability, and roll with it.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

iNickedYerKnickers wrote:

[Bad Guy] Attacks the party's healer.

[Champion] Sees the attack coming and ShoulderChecks/Shoves/KicksALeg/DeflectsTheBlowWithHisSword/Etcetera causing the blow to glance off the target, preventing the party healer from taking the full force of the attack.

Bad guy attacks the party healer on the other side of a wall 10ft away from the champion who is prone, blind and deaf.

Still works RAW.

Don't get me wrong, in a number of scenarios you can justify it, but without magic being involved a non insignificant number of scenarios become impossible or at best incredibly implausible.

Personally I tend to rule it as a bit of divine intervention / cosmic warping that just kinda happens around the champion, and even though it is their reaction it isn't a conscious action in a scenario where a justification like yours doesn't work.

The game is a game first and foremost and champion reactions are far from the worst magical non magical effect in the game (alchemists and their potion elixirs, a huge number of skill feats or ancestry abilities)

[Firehazurd]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

The same thing that happens during Battle Medicine. Abstract, game-mechanic shenanigans.

Battle Medicine has traits that help to clarify it's reality a bit, even if it is absurd in a lot of ways. The issue isn't the absurdity of what is being done, it's that there appears to be a paradox surrounding the reactions (except the LE on IMHO). Even the Retributive Strike still suffers from the problem of "what is happening?!?!?" when the champion chooses not to step and strike.

Quote:

But to properly answer your questions:

Sorry, I might've mislead you with my questions. I totally get the rules around what these things are. Ultimately I think the point of the abilities was that they couldn't be countered, and they just exist as a balanced (which I think they ARE balanced) ability meant to allow the champion to protecc. But the implications of how the ability is written are staggering! I think the ability would've still been just as balanced with a simple Divine trait. How often are you in a situation where Divine powers won't work?