Discoluse, I started with some biases against the class concept. Specifically, I don't really want Iron Man or a lightning gun artificer showing up in every other game.
But, I'm gonna do some builds and see how it looks!
The characters:
Cal. His original concept was a gadgeteer superhero who made himself an advanced prosthetic arm. His PF1 version was an Occultist who bound spirits to animate his paralyzed arm. In PF2, he would have been a Magus. Goals: weaponized arm, electrical damage in melee, defensive bonus using the arm, grappling hook, mechanical prosthetic arm.
Mad Science Gal. Her original concept was a mad roboticist who ransoms the city for funding, but also puts out lab safety PSAs. I haven't built her before, but her PF1 version would have been an Alchemist, probably with one of the construct companion archetypes. In PF2, she would not have been buildable in a meaningful fashion. Goals: construct-focused build (sending construct into battle and hanging back isn't a waste of time), suitably hammy abilities, some hold-out weapon or punishment for being attacked directly.
Some kobold. Look, this looks great for a kobold. I still wish they were +Int. Goals: something that fits a cowardly and petty evil kobold. That's fine, though.
Cal
Ancestry: Human
Heritage: Skilled Versatile (Toughness)
Background: Tinker (Specialty: Blacksmithing)
Stats: 16 Str, 12 Dex, 12 Con, 18 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha
Level 1:
Skills: Crafting, Engineering Lore, 5 4 + Int additional skills (Crafting background, Skilled): Acrobatics, Athletics, Diplomacy, Society, Stealth, Arcana, Occultism… time to go drop Skilled Heritage. Nature.
Innovation: Weapon, Gauntlet, Complex Simplicity (1d4->1d6, versatile slashing). This is pretty bad just to get the flavor of attacking with our arm- we're less accurate than a Rogue, frequently deal less damage (assuming Thief), and aren't getting free skill feats. We'll need to keep an eye out for doing something like this via armor innovation. A prosthesis innovation would be cool, but would probably conflict with the retraining options available to the class.
NOTE: Looks like there's an integrated gauntlet option at 9th, so switching up the base weapon is possible then.
Overdrive: Crafting modifier is 2 + 1 + 4 = 7; simple DC for level 1 is 15. Our action gives us 15% crit success (+4 damage for the fight), 50% success (+2 damage for the fight), 30% failure (wasted action), 5% crit failure (1 fire damage).
Ancestry Feat: Natural Ambition, obviously.
Class feats:
- Built-In Tools: Looks perfect! Build in a Climbing Kit, and bam, integrated grappling hook.
- Explosive Leap should probably also make you fall at the end of your turn if that's your last action. Cool option, but it doesn't fit his grappling hook style.
- Prototype Companion is good, but he doesn't do intelligences.
- Tamper: There we go! Fun ability, good use of a third action in combat if an agile swing isn't going to cut it.
- Unstable Repair: Probably more for constructs.
So, Built-In Tools and Tamper.
Explode: Cool! Blast everybody around him. Since he's got a gauntlet… basically a flamethrower spin?
Level 2:
A quick word on skill and skill feat progression. Crafting is always a required boost as soon as possible, because it is secretly a boosted class DC. That will be 3, 7, and 15. Second priority is Athletics, followed by Society or Diplomacy. Skill feats will generally focus on getting social skill uses on Int skills, as well as athleticism. I'll be skipping over them, because their main relevance to the build is that me being an Int-based martial class does leave me a bit strapped for stats.
Class feats:
- Kickback Strike seems like it's a lot more useful for ranged weapons. (Editing note: it should probably be end each Stride further away, not each Strike.) Cal isn't supposed to be a coward, but I do like the thought on this and wouldn't feel bad if I had to take it.
- Searing Restoration's flavor text is a little more goofy than I'd go for on this character, vaporizing medicinal herbs is pretty cool. I'll grab this, since those are the only two options.
- Would consider an archetype here, but I don't have anything that I feel strongly about, so we're good.
Level 3:
Reconfigure: Cool! Love the flavor on this, cutting down certain types of retraining from a month or week to a day- with a check.
Worth noting! The crafting DC increases by 2 at this level, but we bump up our Crafting proficiency and pull ahead. Almost any Inventor will want to drop 60gp on a Crafting Eyepiece, one of the few permanent sources of a Crafting bonus that actually applies to the things you do with the Crafting skill.
If we just get the proficiency bump, Overdrive gives us 20% crit success (+4 damage for the fight), 50% success (+2 damage for the fight), 25% failure (wasted action), 5% crit failure (1 fire damage). If we get the item too, we can swap the crit success and regular failure numbers. That feels good! … But, our weapon comes first.
Level 4:
Class feats:
- Dual-Form Weapon: Mmm. Two actions hurts on this, especially since I want the weapon I have for flavor reasons. Yes, turning it into a two-handed weapon would be better, but then I should just leave it at that and then why am I even trying for this concept. If it were one action, then it's like shifting grips on a bastard sword, or dropping one weapon and drawing another. I can afford to spend my third action in combat when things get serious enough to drop flavor for power.
- Megaton Strike: Blehhh, this one also feels bad. I don't want to waste my Unstable for the fight on doubling my agile d6 weapon dice; I've already got two better Unstable options.
I'd probably archetype out at this level. I usually wouldn't want to use either feat even if it were free. Sure, I could turn my gauntlet into a bow or something, but look at my Dex.
Options I would want available: something for 1/day removal of Unstable as an action (two actions?), Predictive Purchase but only the Prescient Planner part (by cobbling something together), a feat to count as having a full crafting workshop even in the wilderness, something with shields, something to do with my reaction.
Level 5:
Hey, nice! My weapon innovation gets critical specialization effect.
Ancestry feat: Clever Improviser
Ability boosts: We'll assume a long game, so it'll be the same things I boosted at 1st. If not, Int's increase goes to Cha or maybe Wis.
Level 6:
Class feats:
- Clockwork Celerity: Spend Unstable to strike an extra time.
EDIT: When writing up my thoughts, I realized that this has a special distinction: it's the only way to take advantage of the 20% chance of using Unstable again without gambling an action.
- Megavolt: Spend Unstable for a slightly weaker Lightning Bolt.
- Visual Fidelity: Oooooh. While it's not exactly something that Cal normally has, I like this. The invisibility sight and blindness counteracting are good enough on their own that you'd consider this on the many darkvision ancestries/heritages, and it's especially nice for human. Definitely taking this one.
Level 7:
Offensive Boost: Jolt- we at last have Cal's signature copper palm strike.
Level 8:
Class feats:
- Gigaton Strike: Spending a second feat to add a rider to a 1/combat ability, to save vs. a shove if it hits? No, no way, nope.
- Overdrive Ally: … I really dislike the flavor here. I'm tossing an ally new gadgets every round? I couldn't give them something before combat, I couldn't make something that lasts more than six seconds? And they're catching and using these in combat? I might spend an action to give an ally +4 damage, but last time I checked, that's a quarter of combats. I'm definitely not spending an action to give one ally +2 damage.
… And that's it. I don't even qualify for Gigaton Strike. Would really like Overdrive Ally replaced with something other than winging hot sprockets across the field of battle.
I could drop down to level 6 feats, but that's just another option competing for my 1/combat ability that already has two options. Level 4, I was already considering archetyping.
Serious feat issues piling up for me on this build, unfortunately.
Level 9:
Breakthrough Innovation: Ahhhh… at last. Integrated Gauntlet. Looking through the weapons, we can trade agile for a bump in damage dice, but anything with d6, agile, and something nice other than finesse is uncommon. Guess I've been undervaluing agile, then. I'm clearly also not getting good use out of the free hand so far, so I guess it's time to give in and put the shield on his other arm rather than integrating it. So, we'll actually save Integrated Gauntlet for higher level, when the damage dice increase can't be stacked.
For now… Manifold Array or Aerodynamic Construction, depending on if the metal types are useful in the game.
Level 10:
- Initial Modification: Uhhh… small grapple bonus?
- Tinker's Meddling: Roll for +1d6 damage for an ally for a minute? Fair enough.
Not very exciting options, but they work. Tinker's Meddling for me.
Level 11:
Numbers.
Level 12:
Class feats:
- Boost Modulation: Cool. This is handy for targeting weaknesses.
- Gigavolt: Another follow-on feat to boost a 1/combat ability.
- Shared Overdrive: This makes the ability less cartoonish. I'd rather have these merged and bumped up to the appropriate level.
Boost Modulation for me.
Level 13:
Numbers.
Level 14:
- Eternal Meddling: The first feat chain where I considered the first feat worth taking on its own merits. This is a nice addition, because it lasts all day.
- Unstably Redundancies: … But this is what we've been waiting for. At last, 1/combat moves to 2/combat. Whatever archetype we used to pad out those Unstable-option-only levels, we can retrain a level back into a third Unstable option.
Level 15:
- Complete Reconfiguration: I'd initially read the lower version as closer to this, but it's pretty cool.
Level 16:
- You Failed to Account for… THIS!: Hey! After sixteen levels, I have something I can do with my reaction. It's not bad, either, since we can get item bonuses to Crafting and we should have Legendary proficiency with a better stat.
Level 17:
Revolutionary Innovation: Here's where we talk to the GM about shuffling the weapon type around because I can't stack the dice-bumps. Gauntleted trident or something like that, with Enhanced Damage.
Level 18:
- Devastating Weaponry: Rocket hand, it would seem. Brutal, and I love it.
- Multifarious Meddler: … A three-feat chain? :/ Okay fine, giving all your allies +1d6 weapon damage is potentially worth it, assuming you have no casters, alchemists, or unarmed strikers.
Level 19:
Infinite Invention: This is pretty cool! Massive respecs during downtime.
Level 20:
- Full Automation: Usual capstone business, perma-haste for strike.
- Ubiquitous Overdrive: Another three-feat chain. :/ And now you can hand them things before combat.
Thoughts:
There were some fun things initially, but wow… I just really lost interest in most of the mid-to-high level options for Cal. Gauntlet is a bad choice for a weapon, and it would be better to just go armor with a feat spared for Martial Artist. Someday, getting a special prosthesis innovation would be great (or a class archetype, if it's necessary to address Infinite Invention).
Unstable feels frustrating during character creation. It's like Focus, but Focus feats always expand your max pool so that it goes from "once per combat" to "once per combat with one emergency use" to "once per combat with two emergency uses". Unstable feats just give you more options competing for your one scarce resource, and they take up a lot of the feats. There are even feat chains to improve the various unstable actions. (To avoid reiterating in the other thread, I don't think that changing the odds is going to resolve this underlying issue.)
I'd appreciate having fewer feat chains in the class- certainly not two chains of three feats. The class is already tight on what you can actually take based on covering three innovations.
I suspect that my other two builds will be more enjoyable. Weapon traits probably just aren't for me and/or making a character that can use a construct companion is handy.
Oh gosh you've gone into much more detail than I have, although I've chosen a bunch of class feats I have no idea what to do for skill feats & such. My regular PF2 group is just staring now though so I will have to look at your build later.
Yeah, I didn't really make it as a general builds thread. I just usually start playtests by walking through making my best-suited characters, levels 1-20.
Okay, doing "gauntlet without a construct" was not my jam, so let's go focus on the construct! The kobold will probably pick weapon or armor, but grab a construct
Mad Science Gal. Never made a proper name for her… We'll go with MSG for now.
Image
Artist credit: OrcinusKapros
Ancestry: Gnoll Hobgoblin for now (I won't be focusing much on ancestry feats because she's not really going to be a hobgoblin)
Heritage: Smokeworker Hobgoblin (with strong consideration for Elfbane)
Background: Tinker (Specialty: Blacksmithing)
Stats: 10 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 18 Int, 8 Wis, 12 Cha
Level 1:
Skills: Crafting, Engineering Lore, 4 + Int additional skills (Crafting background): Intimidation, Society, Stealth, Thievery, Athletics, Arcana, Deception, Performance
Ancestry Feat: Alchemical Scholar
Innovation: Construct (Projectile Launcher). The Sensory Array is tempting, and I might grab that with a future feat.
Explode is very stylish on the minion.
Class Feats:
- Built-In Tools again? It would be adorable to be able to reach over and use it for something. I'm not seeing any kits that would work for her, though, because you need a 6-bulk lab to do alchemy crafting.
- Explosive Leap. Very stylish, and a good fit on our already explosive construct.
- The repair option is actually really good on a construct! I'll still stick with Explosive Leap for style, but I wouldn't feel bad spending a first-level feat on this.
Overdrive applies to us AND our construct, which is better than I expected. We'll grab a ranged weapon, some backup melee finesse option, and mostly use it as a damage buff.
Level 2:
We need alchemical crafting for our skill feat, but after that we'll get a few useful things before focusing on shoring up an Intimidation modifier that should probably be higher for this character.
Class feats:
- No! No! I created you!, obviously. It's just too good a name to pass up taking, and the effects will probably come up at some point.
Skipping odd levels with no options, unless something stands out.
Level 4:
- Advanced Construct Companion, obviously. Large size, since she generally favors big, stompy constructs.
Level 5:
Of note, Construct specialization doesn't get quite as much at this level as Weapons. Fair enough! Our companion really starts to feel the burn on poorer accuracy starting here.
Level 6:
- Clockwork Celerity gives us an extra action, not our companion. We'll pass on that.
- Megavolt is fired by our companion. It can't move before using this (same as Explode, thinking about it), but it's still stylish. We also only have one in-combat Unstable ability right now.
Level 7:
Offensive Boost will be for fire. There area actually creatures with weaknesses to it, and I like it better than too much electricity. If we change our mind, we can swap it out for acid.
Level 8:
- Incredible Construct Companion, of course. (Magic attacks appear to be listed twice in this section.)
Level 9:
Ooooh. We can get legendary skills on a companion… well, next level we get a second initial modification, so we can retrain then. For one level, we'll grab Durable Construction.
Level 10:
- Manifold Modifications: Get Enhanced Cortex, and retrain level 9 to Refined Cortex. Bam, scary/sneaky/track-y construct.
Level 12:
- Boost Modulation: This is the practical weakness-exploiting choice.
- Gigavolt: Obviously, we're not here for practical. We've already committed to getting a lightning beam, so let's actually hit multiple targets with it.
Level 14:
- Paragon Companion: Of course. We desperately need this to keep up; if we don't get it, we'll be attacking at -6 relative to martial classes next level. This keeps it to a manageable -3 for a bit.
Level 16:
- The delay on getting Unstable Redundancies hurts, but not as much as an extra -3 attack. It's sad losing out on You Failed to Account for… THIS!, but that's the price of a companion build.
Level 17:
Ooh, got some nice options for the final upgrade. Resistant Coating is really tempting, as is Flight Chassis. Depends on the mood and party composition!
Level 18:
- Engine of Destruction: DOOOOM! Impressive, buuut pretty inaccurate at this point.
Level 20:
- Full Automation is the only option, and it's giving me more actions instead of doing something for my construct companion. At this level, though, it's just so far behind it doesn't matter. The companion is attacking at -5/-6 by this point. (-2 proficiency, -3 runes, -1 stats if Apex.) So, this capstone is probably a good approach: your companion may just be a flanking buddy, but it doesn't take any actions to get into position.
Thoughts:
Well, hanging back and letting the construct do everything is little better than it would with an animal companion. That's probably more the domain of Summoner, though. Getting double the benefit from Overdrive definitely seems like a prompting to go in and flank if you roll a crit success.
This is one where I can't comment as much, because I haven't played an animal companion build, or even seen one at most of these levels. As usual, this sort of thing takes up most of your feats. I was still able to fit in some flavorful stuff.
I think she's going to need to threaten towns a lot lower level than her to get much out of that approach.
It's getting late, but I guess it's a little hard to get excited by "take four feats to not fall behind", "take two feats to make 1/combat lightning hit more than one enemy", and "take one feat to make that 2/combat lightning". Mad Science Gal doesn't take advantage of her martial weapon progression, so a casting or alchemy chassis would suit her better. That's probably what feels off.
So, it is up to the kobold to try to unite both worlds!
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That first character definitely shows that there are plenty of dead levels for...numbers in Saves, improved Proficiency etc. Kinda wish they were given as a leveling suite at level 1, freeing up these levels for actual class abilities or, if it had to be...more feats, but this seems to be the class design paradigm for PF2e.
All right, let's go take a look at the kobold build.
Kobold: +Cha, +Dex, +Int, -Con
So if we're going with a weapon, we want something finesse or ranged. We could get a crossbow and boost the damage, but then Ranger is a better choice because they also get trap-crafting. Eh, forget going weapon. We tried that one already. Let's grab armor instead.
(Suggestion: some kind of explosive traps for the class?)
… And our armor is automatically 16 strength on the requirement, which means I either can't max Int or I need to penalize… Cha and Wis? to boost Str during the ancestry step. Or just have the wrong armor for five levels.
I don't think this class it for me as it stands. I don't care enough about the weapon properties for weapons to be interested in a weapon invention, armor requires a Str build and mostly gives resistances, and construct is… still limited by how much worse than a character pets need to be and how they use half your feats.
Maybe when we have the mini-inventions (the consumables or whatever), there will be more to the class to interest me in playing it. As it stands, it just doesn't live up to any Inventor concept I'm interested in. "Weaponized arm" is no better than punching, "construct master" can't hang back and let their minion fight, and "cunning coward" is just done better by Ranger for ranged (better crossbow attacks and free traps) or Investigator for finesse melee (better bonus damage, more abilities that make you seem brilliant, and… honestly just as much invention feel with Alchemical Sciences).
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I know that's kind of negative. I'm still looking forward to seeing the final version. This isn't a case where I feel like the class can't be something I want; we already know there are going to be some interesting things added that weren't included in the playtest.
These are a pair of classes that are outside my main interests, so it's not terribly surprising that it's not a great fit. I'm grateful for all of the Paizo folks' hard work and passion.
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I agree with a lot of your assessments, some things are just lacking, others come too late, and Unstable is just a bad version of Focus. However I have seen an Overdrive Ally inventor work out good - turns out overdriving an Archer is pretty good, but the bonus just isn't that great mid to high levels.
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I actually ran a dual-form shortsword/composite longbow setup for a session. Overdrive composite longbow is in fact quite nice at level 5. 2d8+3 is a solid hit.
Granted, my dice were on fire that session. I think almost all my attack rolls were 10+.
At levels 1-9 it's pretty good, but after that you need a crit on it for it to feel worth the actions. Past 16, in not sure even that's enough.
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Oh, absolutely. The scaling needs addressed. I'm not sure what would be a good bonus at 20 to have, exactly. Double INT, perhaps? Though maybe just have it add a flat amount at 11 and 17 or so. Offensive Boost helps, but isn't tied to Overdrive (I'm really not sure why, tbh)
Edit: Actually, one option would be maybe:
11-13: On a successful Overdrive, increase the damage of your offensive boost by the same amount?
Personally I was thinking of making it work like weapon specialization, but tied to crafting proficiency (because..Inventor). 1/2 Int or Int for Trained, Int or Int+2 for Expert, Int+2 or Int +4 for Master, Int+4 or Int+6 for Legendary.
Perhaps mess with the success chance? The chance of getting merely a success at level 20 is way too high; by that time you should be able to always crit with that ability.
If at level 17, your degree of success was 1 higher on the check, and you got that additional damage Angel Hunter suggests on a crit success, that might feel better (so, basically you get a new chart, with "Nothing happens" only happening on a critical failure and a new crit success state added on top).
Sure it works, but longbow/shortbow really don't inspire me much for the class. They're not the last weapons I'd pick for somebody to tinker with, buuut they're pretty far from the first. Crossbows are already what you get when you apply technological innovation to a bow- that, or a modern composite bow.