Hi all,
I need some advice about a major plot hook in my home brew campaign. The party is busy trying to save the world and all, as usual, and consist of a paladin(f), bard(f), rogue(f), and barbarian(m). Now, one of the BBEG the party will face is themselves from a different timeline. This Anti-party will de led by the anti-paladin as she is the reason they jumped timelines and has an assassins guild full of anti-paladins. The Anti-party will consist of an anti-paladin, bard, rogue, and bloodrager. But I'm struggling with how to build the Anti-party. All of the party members are quite charismatic, so I'm thinking of building all the members with 2 anti-paladin lvls. But what do you think, should the Anti-party all have at least 2 lvls of anti-paladin of would that be a waste of lvls? The Anti-party will be roughly lvl17.
Many many thanks in advance.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But I'm struggling with how to build the Anti-party. All of the party members are quite charismatic, so I'm thinking of building all the members with 2 anti-paladin lvls. But what do you think, should the Anti-party all have at least 2 lvls of anti-paladin of would that be a waste of lvls? The Anti-party will be roughly lvl17.
I stopped building NPCs at high levels - it's simply not worth the trouble IMO. Players usually don't care about the mechanics of other creatures and their PCs can often kill NPCs very quickly.
Instead I started using the Bestiary reference table 1-1. According to this one, a CR 17 creature has 270 HP, AC 32, a high damage output of 90 per round (if everything hits) etc.. Add a few iconic class abilities (smite good, thematic spells, two bardic performances etc.), deviate from the average values a bit (for example make it 320 HP, but only AC 30) and you have a solid fake of a high-level NPC. For a fraction of the trouble.
Same goes for equipment. It's quite a headache to get the HP and saves of high-level NPCs to reasonable values, with belts of +4 Con, yet another cloak of resistance etc.. So just don't, give them some interesting items to use and loot instead.
Since many people feel safer close to the rules, here is another option: Pick high-level NPCs from the NPC Codex. Tweak them a bit (it's actually recommended right there) and you are ready to go.
text:But I'm struggling with how to build the Anti-party. All of the party members are quite charismatic, so I'm thinking of building all the members with 2 anti-paladin lvls. But what do you think, should the Anti-party all have at least 2 lvls of anti-paladin of would that be a waste of lvls? The Anti-party will be roughly lvl17.I stopped building NPCs at high levels - it's simply not worth the trouble IMO. Players usually don't care about the mechanics of other creatures and their PCs can often kill NPCs very quickly.
Instead I started using the Bestiary reference table 1-1. According to this one, a CR 17 creature has 270 HP, AC 32, a high damage output of 90 per round (if everything hits) etc.. Add a few iconic class abilities (smite good, thematic spells, two bardic performances etc.), deviate from the average values a bit (for example make it 320 HP, but only AC 30) and you have a solid fake of a high-level NPC. For a fraction of the trouble.
Same goes for equipment. It's quite a headache to get the HP and saves of high-level NPCs to reasonable values, with belts of +4 Con, yet another cloak of resistance etc.. So just don't, give them some interesting items to use and loot instead.
Since many people feel safer close to the rules, here is another option: Pick high-level NPCs from the NPC Codex. Tweak them a bit (it's actually recommended right there) and you are ready to go.
Thanks for the tip, but I really like the idea that they are fighting against themselves, i.e. paladin vs anti-paladin, barbarian vs bloodrager, rogue vs rogue, and bard vs skald. But I'm just not sure if I should have the Anti-party have 2lvls of anti-paladin each (charisma bonus to saves), of just have their full classlvls.
I would probably build them as close to mirrors of themselves as possible. So no anti paladin levels for them (other than the anti paladin obviously)
For the antipaladin, what is the motivation of the assassins' guild? Decay and getting rid of "those tree-hugging hippies" (blighted myrmidon)? Earthly, instead of fiendish/profane, domination (dread vanguard)? More "pragmatic" and flexible power-seeking (insinuator; probably a good choice for an assassin's guild)? Pure violence and bloodshed (rough rampager)? Undead apotheosis (knight of the sepulcher)?
The bloodrager may prefer a skald (and Raging Song) mirroring the bard, but have you considered a mesmerist, instead? Possibly an umbral mesmerist for summoning quasi-real monsters and some sneakiness (Ephemeral Stare). For real sneakiness, there's the enigma archetype, which also can be taken with umbral mesmerist (they change/replace different class features).
Instead of a rogue, maybe an evil stalker vigilante could work, possibly a "gadgeteer" (psychometrist). Or maybe the "anti-rogue" has multiple personalities (splintersoul) from a traumatic upbringing or is just a psychopath (serial killer).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for the tip, but I really like the idea that they are fighting against themselves, i.e. paladin vs anti-paladin, barbarian vs bloodrager, rogue vs rogue, and bard vs skald. But I'm just not sure if I should have the Anti-party have 2lvls of anti-paladin each (charisma bonus to saves), of just have their full classlvls.
I'd skip the antipaladin levels for bloodrager, rogue and skald. One reason is: It makes the antipaladin less unique. If you want to boost saves with Cha, there is at least the Steadfast Personality feat. It makes Will saves base on Cha instead of Wis, but only for mind-affecting effects and you have to add the Wis penalty, if any. Further candidates are Divine Protection and Kobold Confidence (kobold only, though Racial Heritage technially works).
Beyond that, I absolutely second a mesmerist as mirror of the bard. The class is mostly about messing with people's minds (which has at least an evil touch), it's rather about debuffing than buffing (opposed to a bard) and there is an evil iconic mesmerist which happens to be the brother of the good-aligned iconic bard. Building a mesmerist isn't much of a hassle either.
Finally, I'd pick one defining mechanical trait of each PC and look for an evil counterpart. For example the paladin might wield a greatsword - so the antipaladin could use a greataxe or a scythe. The bard might be into singing - so the mesmerist could operate very silently. The rogue might all about Stealth - so her counterpart is probably of the boasting type. The barbarian might have a specific totem - so the bloodrager could have an evil version of it as his bloodline.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'll second the advice to lose the antipaladin levels for all but the actual antipaladin. SheepishEidolon hits it on the head: it makes that one villain less unique. It also robs the other three NPCs of a couple levels of their own signature schticks. You want them to be as good at their core concepts as the PCs are at theirs, right? Multiclassing always dilutes a character's core abilities--especially for any kind of caster--so don't do it unless you have a VERY solid and compelling reason for it.
ALso, I'm kind of curious about how you end up with "an assassin's guild full of antipaladins"? Antipaladins are notorious for not getting along with each other (that's what comes of being CE and having a bigger ego than anyone else in the room), and having more than one also undermines the uniqueness of your main NPC antipaladin. I would make the guild just as varied as your NPC party is: put some actual assassins in there, some fighter or monk enforcers, a couple clerics or warpriests of your BBEG's patron, a necromancer, and some other minions with their own different skill sets. It makes for a much better-rounded organization, and a less predictable one, too.
|
Variation on that idea, you could go with antithesis. Look at each PC's stats and class and choose the opposite. So lets say your PC barbarian is a classic brutish guy, then have your anti party version be a cultured wizard.
It could be a fun exercise to look at their stats, dump whatever their best stat is and max whatever their worst stat is and see what sort of build you could make with it.
That said, I'm 100% with SheepishEidolon. I build all my npcs using the bestiary monster creation rules, not pc classes. Makes for far more balanced encounters, is quicker, and has less irrelevant fiddly bits.
Many thank thanks for the advice guys 'n gals.
The story behind the assassins guild is that in years past (~100 ago) an anti-paladin build the guild to amass power and money to achieve her goal of stopping a different BBEG in destroying the world (this anti-paladin came back from the future to stop the BBEG that destroyed her world. This anti-paladin is the future daughter of the paladin in our party and once we stopped the BBEG, the anti-paladin laid down her weapon and dismantled the guild). Among her guild members were all sorts of anti-paladins, a mysterious stranger gunslinger anti-paladin, an nyogoth qlippoth with anti-paladin lvls, and many more anti-paladins. mostly out of fear of the anti-paladin leader they followed her, but also because they shared her goal. They all left after he guild was dismantled because only 2 or 3 survived.
Now, they current anti-party will also arrive from the future of a different timeline, were the gods, and simultaneously the lack of influence by the gods, destroy the world. The lack of influence angers the anti-party and the anti-paladin learns about the previous assassins guild ran by an anti-paladin and uses that abandoned guild and the frightening legacy to rebuild the guild to amass power and money to battle the gods herself before the destroy the world. I have her devout to the Oinodaemon, as he is also fond of revenge and destruction. The rest of the anti-party, which will have classes like Dragonchess suggested, have also witnessed the horrors of their timeline and will stop for nothing to achieve the goal of destroying the gods before they destroy their world.
So, thanks to your advice, I'll will only have the anti-paladin have anti-paladin levels, the others will only have their own class lvls.
our entire current campaign revolves around that gag. There are mirror versions that manifest in the world of almost everyone, obviously including the PCs.
The GM just has us fight ourselves. Meaning, you turn to the player of the Paladin and tell him to attack to Bard, using all his expertly chosen abilities. Makes it much easier on the GM instead of having to handle a full party of PC characters and gets the bonus of using their expertise in running the character.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
a paladin(f), bard(f), rogue(f), and barbarian(m).
It's really hard to say what an anti-whatever is, except for the paladin.
I'd go skald for the anti-bard. Slayer for the anti-rogue. And Monk for the anti-barbarian.