Hey all,
I've got a build I'm working on that is showing some real promise and I've looking to finish it up by picking up two spells that will cement its ability to contribute to the group while its other abilities have time to come online. To that end, I need to get Produce Flame on their spell list, and Pale Flame if possible.
The bad news? I can't change race (Half-Elf), multiclass, or use anything that requires a good alignment.
The good news? The class is Arcanist and any archetype is OK as long as it does not replace the 1st level exploit. The first feat that I have available to use is the one granted at 5th level.
The character is currently serving as a hired NPC for an adventure that I am running, and while I could just hand-waive the issue away, I'd like to keep it as close to PFS legal as I can (it is already PFS compliant). After I see how it performs in gameplay, I may eventually run this character as my own in my next game as a PC.
Thanks
tl;dr: No suggestions from you.
Spell research for an equivalent spell(s) should work here.
Failing that, there are prestige classes which can grab off-list spells (pathfinder savant, daivrat, evangelist of Moloch if a SLA is OK) but at higher levels than 5th obviously.
Hmm, yes. I expected my options to be extremely limited. I've already dipped two levels outside of Arcanist to pickup some abilities that synergize extremely well with my intentions for the character (and are, in fact, key to the build entirely), so dipping/multiclassing/prestige classing that detracts from the Arcanist levels is ... impractical. Spell levels and such being a full two levels behind.
So, let's shift gears. I need Evocation (fire) spells (not spell-like abilities) to pad the character's spellbook with, and the more 'damage' that I can get out of them the better, even if that damage happens over time. Produce Flame's 1d6+5 (or 2d6+5 with Pale Flame) twice a round (with high BAB or rapid shot) is somewhat ideal. Any Evocation spell will work, honestly, as long as I can make it do fire damage.
Burning arc is about the best 2nd level wizard fire damage spell (if a Keleshite origin isn't a problem for your character), burning gaze sets people on fire which is your basic damage over time, scorching ray you have to be familiar with. Oh, and flaming sphere, 3d6 for a move action. Elemental spell can turn other elements into fire but generally fire has the best damage spells anyway.
1st level fire evocations are more forgettable. They have to be evocation spells and made by Paizo for Pathfinder 1, right? How high level are you willing to go?
Burning arc is about the best 2nd level wizard fire damage spell (if a Keleshite origin isn't a problem for your character), burning gaze sets people on fire which is your basic damage over time, scorching ray you have to be familiar with. Elemental spell can turn other elements into fire but generally fire has the best damage spells anyway.
Yes, well, Burning Arc is probably the most useful 2nd level spell I could get right at this moment, unless Pale Flame becomes an option. As of right now, the character has a caster level of 5.
A bit of insight to what the character can do: Through a combination of class abilities, the character can heal through fire damage, though at a reduced rate. Those of you with higher system mastery may guess as to how.
Burning Arc would give me 5d6+2d6 (24.5 avg) Fire damage in one quick burst. The healing provided by this is halved, then adding 3x spell level to it on a single target of that spell. This is 12+6 = 18 HP healed to first target, and 3 HP Healed to the secondary.
Pale Flame would give me 5(2d6+5) (60 avg) Fire damage over the course of the spell. Assuming that the healing provide due to the spell level is applied only once, that is potentially (7+5/2 + 6) + 4(7+5/2) = 36 HP healed (or 60 HP if additional healing is applied each attack).
Produce Flame is less, of course, due to the loss of a 1d6, but still substantial (3.5+5/2 + 3) + 4(3.5+5/2) = 23 HP healed (or 40 HP healed if additional healing applied each attack).
My goal with this character is to create a sort of mediocre blaster (which I am entirely fine with) that can passively heal the group as he does, but immediately switch into a healing roll at short notice. And, as you can see, he is exceedingly good at it. The downfall of this character is that he doesn't get 2nd level spells until 6th level, and is a full 2 levels behind his normal class progression. So, I really, really want Produce Flame.
1st level fire evocations are more forgettable. They have to be evocation spells and made by Paizo for Pathfinder 1, right? How high level are you willing to go?
Yes, that is what keeping this legal for PFS means. Level really doesn't matter, as the character's ability to heal is online as of level 3.
If time really isn't an issue but catching on fire isn't going to do it there's flaming sphere. 3d6/round for 5 rounds, halved then +6 once/round will heal about 55 HP for you.
I note that evocation isn't a requirement of the phoenix bloodline if that's the base you're working from. Just fire damage; burning sands (1st level conjuration) does 1d4 fire damage to each target in a 20' radius each round for 1 round/level. About 4 HP/round healed to the primary target, about 1 HP/round healed to everyone else.
Phoenix Bloodline? Doesn't seem to be restricted to Evocation, so maybe I am overlooking something.
Pheonix Bloodline does play a role in the build, but the Evocation requirement is part of another ability that synergizes with it. More bang for your buck if you use a spell that fits both requirements.
If it is the Phoenix Bloodline Arcana, the whole spell doesn't have to deal fire damage, there just has to be fire damage on the spell. IE, if you have a way to add +1 fire damage to the spell you can convert it to healing, even if the spell doesn't have the fire keyword.
I know that is technically correct but I'd rather not dance that close to the shenanigans line when I am already healing better than I aught to be able to.
If time really isn't an issue but catching on fire isn't going to do it there's flaming sphere. 3d6/round for 5 rounds, halved then +6 once/round will heal about 55 HP for you.
The once per round versus once per spell is an issue that I really don't want to have to argue about with a potential GM. I'm going to assume that it is once per spell casting.
Flumefire Rage is on my target list, for the +1 to fire damage on evocation spells. Aside from (Extra Arcanist Exploit)x3 I have not really chosen any other feats.
Is there a reason you keep this build so secret and only hint at things? That makes it really hard to come up with workable suggestions.
My recommendation is to just wear a Ring of Spell Knowledge, but it will increase the spell's level by +1.
Otherwise, the sorcerer's Solar bloodline gets you Searing Light as a 1st-level spell (which is huge, imo) and adds +1 fire damage per dice.
Or just go with Fireball. Add in alchemical material components like Alchemist's Fire and Magic Tricks for better effects.
Is there a reason you keep this build so secret and only hint at things? That makes it really hard to come up with workable suggestions.
Well, yes. It is merely a (selfish, I admit) desire to keep the particular build a secret until I have had a chance to put it through its paces. The specifications I gave are adequate enough to inform anyone of what restrictions on advice they could offer.
The biggest issue is the inability to cast 2nd level spells until 6th level, meaning that I need a workable 1st level fire spell (which I've narrowed down to Produce Flame as ideal). Casting it as a higher level spell isn't a workable solution for the first 5 levels when it is most critical. I can make due with Burning Hands and Scorching Ray/Burning Arc, I just really want the Produce Flame spell
The specifications I gave are adequate enough to inform anyone of what restrictions on advice they could offer.
Oh really? You didn't even tell what the other 2 class levels are, that you took beside arcanist. If one of them is another spellcaster class, that really changes a lot. There could be archetypes, class feats, items, ... and a lot of other things; e.g. a sorcerer likely has Eschew Materials, so you can freely add saltpeter to your fire spells for +1 damage.
Pay that Shaman I mentioned upthread. You get 1 Produce Flame at level 1-2, 2 at 3-4, and 1 Pale Flame and 2 Produce Flame at level 5. All at CL 9, not your level.
Class change is not an option, unfortunately.
Alternatively, can you rework your levels to prioritize getting 2nd level spells first, then tag on your 'special sauce' in levels 5-6? Or just do retraining when your main trick comes online?
Rearranging the class levels would help with the 2nd level spell issue... That might work better as an actual build for the character rather than an NPC. As far as retraining, that could work if the campaign allowed for it (sufficient downtime).
Oh really? You didn't even tell what the other 2 class levels are, that you took beside arcanist. If one of them is another spellcaster class, that really changes a lot. There could be archetypes, class feats, items, ... and a lot of other things; e.g. a sorcerer likely has Eschew Materials, so you can freely add saltpeter to your fire spells for +1 damage.
A single level of two other classes isn't likely going to help when I need the Produce Flame/Pale Flame on the Arcanist spell list. Adding +1 to damage is fairly easy with sorcerer levels but isn't the focus of this thread request. Getting the spells is the focus.
A single level of two other classes isn't likely going to...
OK, then dip a level into Arcane Savant or Mystic Theurge, you get Produce Flame as a 2nd-level arcanist spell.
I was suggesting you pay for spellcasting services at your local town(well, Asmodeus temple). Spellcasting Services are from the core rulebook.
Paying for daily use of a 5th level spell slot might get a bit taxing, aside from getting wrapped up with Asmodeus and his church.
OK, then dip a level into Arcane Savant or Mystic Theurge, you get Produce Flame as a 2nd-level arcanist spell.
Mystic Theurge is not an option as it requires too much deviation from Arcanist levels. Arcane Savant, in combination with Prestigious Spellcaster, may just have to suffice. Losing another casting level is not acceptable. Thanks for the assistance.
Technically, you only pay for the casting of spells, not the locking out of spell slots. Though in this case, it's not even locking out the slot, the caster is just prevented from preparing a spell in that slot. If they have a different way to sacrifice that slot for something else, they still can, though you need to pay attention to wording. If its expend a prepared spell(greater spell specialization), then it won't work. I could see a GM ruling a different way for balance, but that's not RAW.
I've really got nothing to add aside from that I do not see the situation the same way. As a GM myself, I do not look at every rules interaction and choose the most favorable interpretation. A spellcasting contract tends to fall well outside of the normal 'one-time' payment of a spellcasting service. Sure, you can negotiate in a realistic manner, but I don't want to rely on methods that require GM interaction. Trying to keep this PFS legal severely limits what we can do.
Yeah, I suppose it is a moot issue at this point. It is not like this character will ever see PFS play anyway.
So, I suppose I will 'spill the beans' on the important parts of the character build, to see if anyone has anything else to add.
We are giving up casting levels. Yes, really. I've gone back and forth on what the character loses and what they gain, and decided that it is actually worth it. Since we never lag behind on caster levels with the Arcanist, all we are doing is delaying our access to higher level magic by two levels, but replacing that with the ability to heal WITH EVERY SPELL and gaining a small toolkit of other spells per day to tide us over until we get 2nd level spells.
Multi-disciplined (+1 to all caster levels)
Moon-kissed (+1 to all saves)
Dual Minded (+2 to will saves)
Classes:
Arcanist 18
Sorcerer (Crossblooded: Phoenix & Unicorn)
Wizard (Chronomancer, Necromancer [Life])
Traits:
Bifurcated magic (Arcanist & Wizard) +1 caster level each
Magical Knack (Sorcerer): +2 caster level
Level 1: Arcanist
Exploit: Arcane Discovery (Creative Destruction)
Feat: Extra Arcanist Exploit: School Understanding [Necromancy: Life]
Level 2: Wizard (Chronomancer, Necromancy [Life])
Protip: Trade off Scribe Scroll for Spell Focus (Evocation)
Level 3: Sorcerer (Crossblooded: Phoenix & Unicorn)
Feat: Extra Arcanist Exploit (Bloodline Development)
Pro-tip: Trade off 1st level bloodline power for Blood Havoc
Level 4: Arcanist 2
This is a dead level, sort of. You get more spells per day. We start feeling the lack of level 2 spells at this point, but only a little. Our caster levels are still equal across the board between classes. You do get access to your Sorcerer level 3 bloodline power, though I suggest trading it off for Blood Intensity.
Level 5: Arcanist 3
Arcanist Exploit: I SUGGEST Orderly Casting but pick what you want.
Feat: [insert metamagic feat of your choice] or pick up Spell Focus (Eovcation) if you dont have it yet
Level 6: Arcanist 4
Now we have 2nd level spells, and the ball gets rolling (literally with Flaming Sphere, if you use it).
Level 7: Arcanist 5
Exploit: Might as well get a familiar [protector] at this point
Feat: Versatile Spontaneity (make use of those Temporal Pool points with your Arcanist spells)
Level 8: Arcanist 6
Fireball time, baby. 3rd level spells. We are officially more useful than the Bard now.
After all of these choices, the build really opens up for whatever you want to do with it.
Yeah, I suppose it is a moot issue at this point. It is not like this character will ever see PFS play anyway.
So, I suppose I will 'spill the beans' on the important parts of the character build, to see if anyone has anything else to add.
Thank you, I was curious!
I looked at all the involved abilities, and while there is some synergy, it's not that much. Basically it's a Phoenix sorcerer, who can heal an additional 3 hit-points per spell level and gets a stack of temporary hit-points with each spell. The Chronomancer archetype doesn't play into any of this. Did I get that right?
I still don't see how Produce Flame would be such a good spell for this. I can imagine if you go with a very loose interpretation of Creative Destruction, you could get a lot of temp hp, but that requires a really, really nice GM.
You have learned how to use destructive energy to empower yourself. When you cast an evocation spell that deals damage, you gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the total number of dice used to determine the damage caused by the spell. Temporary hit points gained from this discovery do not stack and disappear after 1 hour.
I looked at all the involved abilities, and while there is some synergy, it's not that much. Basically it's a Phoenix sorcerer, who can heal an additional 3 hit-points per spell level and gets a stack of temporary hit-points with each spell.
At the core of it, yes. But those hit points stack up fast.
The Chronomancer archetype doesn't play into any of this. Did I get that right?
It plays a role, especially at the early levels, letting you recall spells that fail for some reason. Once you pick up Versatile Spontaneity, it allows you to recall a single higher level Arcanist spell that has failed for some reason. The inclusion of the archetype was mostly to prevent gaining a class feature that wouldn't really grow with you, or be useful later on.
I still don't see how Produce Flame would be such a good spell for this. I can imagine if you go with a very loose interpretation of Creative Destruction, you could get a lot of temp hp, but that requires a really, really nice GM.
It is purely the amount of healing that a level 1 spell would be capable of delivering. That flat +5 to the 1d6 makes it highly effective, especially once you can get more than one of them off a round.
As for the temporary hp gained, there are ways to make use of it such as through spells that deal damage to you every turn but also damage to an enemy in greater amounts. Sharing damage via Shield Other (and similar abilities) becomes more effective. Temp HP lost is HP you never have to heal.
I'd go into more detail but didn't have the time to post everything.
As for the temporary hp gained, there are ways to make use of it such as through spells that deal damage to you every turn but also damage to an enemy in greater amounts. Sharing damage via Shield Other (and similar abilities) becomes more effective. Temp HP lost is HP you never have to heal.
True, the amount of temporary hit-points are truly great in this build, and using them for these options is powerful.
I have to admit, I generally leave any temp hp abilities aside, since it was never really clarified how they work and if they stack; too much GM fiat imo.
Good luck!
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True, the amount of temporary hit-points are truly great in this build, and using them for these options is powerful.
I have to admit, I generally leave any temp hp abilities aside, since it was never really clarified how they work and if they stack; too much GM fiat imo.
Temp HP is like any other bonus, it doesn't stack with itself unless it says it does. See the spell Purify Body, the Shell of Succor revelation/hex, the kineticist's Force Ward defensive talent, the Arcane Barrier arcanist exploit, etc, etc for examples of Temp HP that explicitly stacks with each other.