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Does the scorpion familiar gain a free feat from losing the mindless trait and gaining an intelligence score? I have not found any solid confirmations or rejections of this.
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Hmm.
I would think it does.
It should also have 1 skill rank if it's not mindless
There's a James Jacob's post reminding us that stat gains on int give ranks retroactively. I would presume it also applies to gaining a feat.
But I might be wrong. Idk, and it seems anything I post as a fact will get dissected unless I wrote a legal dictionary to accommompany it. So proceed at your own risk.
Holy crap... PF1 has literally come and gone... has this never been brought up before? I am not being rude, genuinely curious... and too lazy to search at work.
Yeah there's nothing concrete about this, it's mostly forums on players debating whether it gets it or not and the arguments that support their sides ):
Why would they not get the skills and feats their INT allows them? In the description under vermin it states that vermin get 2+ INT modifier for skills. It also adds “Most vermin however are mindless and gain no skill points or feat”. Since vermin do gain skill points and feats unless they are mindless, which they are not , they gain the skill points and feats that they would normally have.
The section Name Violation is refereeing to is under monster creation.
After you have assigned skills, it's time to assign the creature's feats. Each creature with an Intelligence score receives a number of feats equal to 1 + 1 per every 2 Hit Dice after the first (so, 1 at 1 HD, 2 at 3 HD, etc.). A creature must qualify to take a feat as normal. See Table 1–6 for a quick feat calculation chart.
Since the familiar does have an INT score, and has at least 1 HD it should get the skill points and feats it is entitled to .
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Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms). Mindless creatures have no feats or skills. A vermin-like creature with an Intelligence score is usually either an animal or a magical beast, depending on its other abilities.
A greensting scorpion familiar grants a +4 bonus on Initiative checks so long as the familiar is within 1 mile of the spellcaster. A greensting scorpion familiar loses the mindless trait and has an Intelligence score appropriate for its master’s level.
As it loses mindless he gets the appropriate feat and skill point for a creature with 1 HD and its intelligence.
Except doesn't familiars use your skillranks so it doesn't need the ones from HD? In any case, there's the clause that "[Familiar] retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type." So it doesn't get any new feats or skill ranks regardless of how its intelligence changes while you level.
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Except doesn't familiars use your skillranks so it doesn't need the ones from HD? In any case, there's the clause that "[Familiar] retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type." So it doesn't get any new feats or skill ranks regardless of how its intelligence changes while you level.
a familiar can use its ranks if it has them and you dont.
for example if it puts 1 rank in stealth and you dont, it still has a rank in stealth
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Except doesn't familiars use your skillranks so it doesn't need the ones from HD? In any case, there's the clause that "[Familiar] retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type." So it doesn't get any new feats or skill ranks regardless of how its intelligence changes while you level.
Increasing intelligence increase the number of skill point available, and a familiar decidedly increase its intelligence when the master increases his level. But the intelligence bonus is applied to the HD of the creature, so 1 HD regardless of the level of the master.
And, as Name Violation said, the familiar can use its skills instead of its master skills, if it want.
The "retains the [...] feats of the normal animal it once was" line seems to say that no it doesn't gain any new feats from this.
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The "retains the [...] feats of the normal animal it once was" line seems to say that no it doesn't gain any new feats from this.
Mindless has a specific effect. If you remove it, the effect is removed. Not having the feat isn't something linked to it being a greensting, it is linked to the mindless trait.
As I see it, you would resolve it in this order:
- it is a creature, it gets feats and skills as appropriate for its HD and type;
- it has the vermin type, and it is mindless. It loses skills and feat;
- it becomes a familiar, it loses the mindless trait, so it gets back the feats and the skill points (modified by the current intelligence).
What it really comes down to is does the creature get the benefit of its new INT? Forget about the scorpion for now and considered what happens with a normal animal. Does a normal animal gain skill points as its INT grows? If the cat gains skill points when its master reaches 10th level and no longer has a negative INT modifier, then the familiar is gaining the benefits of its new INT. If that is the case then the scorpion should also get the feat its INT grants it.
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What it really comes down to is does the creature get the benefit of its new INT? Forget about the scorpion for now and considered what happens with a normal animal. Does a normal animal gain skill points as its INT grows? If the cat gains skill points when its master reaches 10th level and no longer has a negative INT modifier, then the familiar is gaining the benefits of its new INT. If that is the case then the scorpion should also get the feat its INT grants it.
All creatures get the skills when the intelligence increase. Simply, a familiar HD are those of the base creature, not those of the wizard.
That was kind of my point. If the scorpion gains skill points at 10th level, why does it not gain them at 1st? If it is gaining skill points it should also gain the feat.
The point of the "[Familiar] retains the... skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was" part is to say that it's never supposed to gain anything over what a normal creature has. A normal house cat has weapon finesse not because it consciously chose it, but because that's what they should have in all cases. When you look at its skills, it should only have one rank, yet it has 3 (climb, perception, and stealth) despite build rules being 2+int (minimum 1). If you had a housecat familiar, at level 15 when it gains an int bonus great enough to a give it a 4th skill rank, it should still retain those 3 ranks and not add a new one, because the "[Familiar] retains the... skills... of the normal animal it once was". The same should go with feats.
...the "[Familiar] retains the... skills... of the normal animal it once was". The same should go with feats.
Except, if a "normal animal" were to increase it's intelligence or HD, it would (possibly) normally gain more skill points and/or feats.
That's an extremely unclear line you're quoting. Not even remotely definitive. For every "it's clear they intended" argument you could make from it, there's another that someone could make for the opposite case.
I don't see how we could reach anything concrete, here. I'd just look at it and determine which decision would lead to a more fair and balanced familiar versus the other options and go with that.
What it's definitely saying is that things are the same and unchangeable from the bestiary entries, meaning vermin or not, you don't get to swap around skill ranks, feats, etc. just because the creature type or other parts of the stats change (animals have a limited selection of feats because of their low intelligence, but they can't swap them just because they get more int and their creature type changes). Why should they suddenly now gain them in spite of that statement?
Yeah, I guess you're right.
I'd be hesitant to allow a freely selectable feat to a familiar regardless of how the rules decision went. Particularly the green sting scorpion since it's available with a single feat. It's already a level 2 flying mount for a halfling wizard or shaman, I'm sure I could come up with a good feat to slap onto it. It's just a mess of exceptions, one more probably won't make it worse.
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The point of the "[Familiar] retains the... skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was" part is to say that it's never supposed to gain anything over what a normal creature has. A normal house cat has weapon finesse not because it consciously chose it, but because that's what they should have in all cases. When you look at its skills, it should only have one rank, yet it has 3 (climb, perception, and stealth) despite build rules being 2+int (minimum 1). If you had a housecat familiar, at level 15 when it gains an int bonus great enough to a give it a 4th skill rank, it should still retain those 3 ranks and not add a new one, because the "[Familiar] retains the... skills... of the normal animal it once was". The same should go with feats.
Actually, a cat has 1 skill point, in perception.
Cat skills:
Skills Climb +6 = +4 racial, +2 dexterity
Perception +5 = +4 class skill, +1 skill point
Stealth +14 = +4 racial, +2 dex, +8 tiny
Tiny creatures, Climb, and Swim: Should all Tiny creatures use Dex instead of Str for Climb and Swim skill checks, or is that just for familiars?
Any creature of Tiny or smaller size should use its Dex modifier instead of its Str modifier for Climb and Swim checks. This will be added to Bestiary 4 as a new Universal Monster Rule.
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What it's definitely saying is that things are the same and unchangeable from the bestiary entries, meaning vermin or not, you don't get to swap around skill ranks, feats, etc. just because the creature type or other parts of the stats change (animals have a limited selection of feats because of their low intelligence, but they can't swap them just because they get more int and their creature type changes). Why should they suddenly now gain them in spite of that statement?
Feats: You can easily exchange a prebuilt familiar’s starting feats with different feats that better match your concept, such as the familiar feats on page 18 of Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive. There are also new feats relating to familiars on pages 18–19 of this volume, allowing a great deal of customization and sometimes adding unusual mystical qualities and abilities.
Explicit permission to change feats.
If you consider that a familiar normally don't get new HD, it has no way to get feats without a GM intervention if it can't change its starting feats. The limitation that you try to impose would make the feat aimed at familiars totally useless.
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Yeah, I guess you're right.
I'd be hesitant to allow a freely selectable feat to a familiar regardless of how the rules decision went. Particularly the green sting scorpion since it's available with a single feat. It's already a level 2 flying mount for a halfling wizard or shaman, I'm sure I could come up with a good feat to slap onto it. It's just a mess of exceptions, one more probably won't make it worse.
???
It is a tiny scorpion. It has no flying speed and it can't carry a small humanoid.
You have it confused with some other vermin.
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Yeah, I guess you're right.
I'd be hesitant to allow a freely selectable feat to a familiar regardless of how the rules decision went. Particularly the green sting scorpion since it's available with a single feat. It's already a level 2 flying mount for a halfling wizard or shaman, I'm sure I could come up with a good feat to slap onto it. It's just a mess of exceptions, one more probably won't make it worse.
???
It is a tiny scorpion. It has no flying speed and it can't carry a small humanoid.
You have it confused with some other vermin.
they're probably thinking of the dragonfly
No, I was thinking of gaining it through the wasp familiar feat. I could have phrased that better, sorry. I'd never seen the rule allowing for changing familiar feats, with that being the case, the scorpion gaining the feat isn't that big an issue.