I believe they would craft it at level 1 if the Hunter provides the spell. I know that works generally for crafting and I don't know of anything that would change this for Spell Trigger items, though I'm not an expert.
You could charge a small fee for crafting a specialist wand, though it likely wouldn't be all that much - at most 1/2 the cost of the wand, though likely considerably less. Again I'm not an expert, but there are costs associated with hiring crafting services.
EDOT: If there isn't a cost listed for similar crafting services I'd make it somewhere between +10% and +50% for the wand. Since this is and item they should theoretically be able to buy at a normal price elsewhere I'd lean more toward +10%.
You could charge a small fee for crafting a specialist wand, though it likely wouldn't be all that much - at most 1/2 the cost of the wand, though likely considerably less.I disagree with this part. IMO, they would charge exactly what they would charge for any other level 1 wand. After all, it takes exactly the same amount of time and effort.
_
glass.
Since it's the Hunter casting the spell and not the Cleric, it is significantly less effort for them...
"The price of a wand is equal to the level of the spell ×the creator’s caster level × 750 gp. (...) Note that some spells appear at different levels for different casters. The level of such spells depends on the caster crafting the wand." CRB pg. 496
By the rules, who helps the crafter by providing the actual spellcasting is irrelevant. If a Cleric is crafting the wand, the Cleric version is used for the spell level. I do believe the additional restriction "In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites." could be read as help not being permitted for those items - that would explain the lack of rules for prices when collaboratively crafting such items.
In the end, it's ambiguous, and thus comes down to a decision to be made by the GM. Do you want discount wands or not.
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"The price of a wand is equal to the level of the spell ×the creator’s caster level × 750 gp. (...) Note that some spells appear at different levels for different casters. The level of such spells depends on the caster crafting the wand." CRB pg. 496
By the rules, who helps the crafter by providing the actual spellcasting is irrelevant. If a Cleric is crafting the wand, the Cleric version is used for the spell level. I do believe the additional restriction "In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites." could be read as help not being permitted for those items - that would explain the lack of rules for prices when collaboratively crafting such items.
In the end, it's ambiguous, and thus comes down to a decision to be made by the GM. Do you want discount wands or not.
When crafting cooperatively the "crafter" is either of the persons cooperating, not necessarily the one with the feat.
The crafting cost is based on the spell used and the CL of the wand.- * -
For the OP question, I, as the crafter, would ask a full refund of the cost of crafting the wand plus between 10 to 25% of the sales price of a wand of a fist level spell. The exact percentage will depend on how often I make wands (a GM call). If I make a wand of CLW every day I will ask the higher cost or even more, as working for other people this way reduce my profit. If I make a wand once a month, making this wand can be done in my "free time", so it is extra profit and I will ask a lower price to attract more work.
When crafting cooperatively the "crafter" is either of the persons cooperating, not necessarily the one with the feat.
Sure it is. The crafting feat is what allows crafting. "Coperative crafting" is really people helping the crafter, not an even split - it's a crafter getting assistance, not two crafters.
A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.
This doesn't reference who's casting the spell, simply that the minimum caster level must be high enough to cast the "needed spell". If the "needed spell" is a first level spell - even if cast by someone else - then the minimum viable caster level is 1.
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When crafting cooperatively the "crafter" is either of the persons cooperating, not necessarily the one with the feat.Sure it is. The crafting feat is what allows crafting. "Coperative crafting" is really people helping the crafter, not an even split - it's a crafter getting assistance, not two crafters.
S.K.Reynolds, when he was the guy with the job of replying to rule questions.
"It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary."A wizard and a cleric cooperating to craft a scroll of cure light wounds are, between the two of them, meeting all of the prerequisites for the item's creation. Thus, the "you cannot create this if you don't meet all the prerequisites" rule on page 549 does not apply, because "you" in the case of cooperative crafting is "the people involved in crafting the item."
Our guys are making a wand of "Savage maw, Spell Level 1, Caster Level 1".
One of the two meet the prerequisite of "being able to cast Savage maw at Spell Level 1? Yes. Prerequisite meet.One of the two has a CL of 1 or more? Yes. Prerequisite meet.
One of the two has the needed feat? Yes. Prerequisite meet.
So yes, they can make the wand at spell level 1, CL 1.
With your interpretation a wizard can scribe only spell he know and has memorized, cooperation is useless.
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Cooperative Crafting If you need another character to supply one of an item’s requirements (such as if you’re a wizard creating an item with a divine spell), both you and the other character must be present for the entire duration of the crafting process. If the GM is using the downtime system from Chapter 2, both you and the other character must use downtime at the same time for this purpose. Only you make the skill check to complete the item—or, if there is a chance of creating a cursed item, the GM makes the check in secret.
If the second character is providing a spell effect, that character’s spell is expended for the day, just as if you were using one of your own spells for a requirement. If the second character is a hired NPC, you must pay for the NPC’s spellcasting service (Core Rulebook 163) for each day of the item creation.
A couple of interesting things in that quote:
1) the guy with the crafting feat is the one that makes the skill check. In that Derklord is right when he says that the other guy is an helper;
2) the helper get paid for casting the spell as for the rules of hired spellcasters.
If we use 2), the crafted wand would be a full property of the cleric with the feat, while the PC would receive some compensation for the work done. So, at the end of the day the wand would cost full price, less the wage for the helper. Harsh.
The SKR quote is not really much help, because it's not official and could very well just be his rule interpretation (he made plenty of posts like that), but searching for the rule section he quoted made me find a definite answer to the question:
"If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known." CRB pg. 461
So by that, what I said in this thread was wrong.
Corrected answer: The Cleric and Hunter working together can decide to designate the Hunter as the creator of the wand, thus using the Hunter's version of the spell, making it wand of a 1st level spell and possible at caster level 1 (for a material cost of 375 gp).
Edit regarding your edit: Well, that's not a crafter PC getting help form a spellcaster NPC, this case is basically the opposite. I do agree that the NPC could (and should) demand the full price for the wand, e.g. 750gp.
"The Holy Order of the Prolific Wand's" strikes again!
It might require some kind of diplomacy check.
Diplomacy check? "I'll pay you 750gp for a custom 1st level wand that I'll provide the spell for, take it or leave it." If the Cleric would be willing to craft a wand of a Cleric 1st level spell, there's no reason for them not to craft the desired 1st level Savage Maw wand. And now I imagina a germaphobic Cleric who doesn't allow anyone else in their workplace...
Let's say you have a cleric crafing a plane shift scroll for your party. He says he'd have to wait until tomorrow to craft it because he doesn't have it memorized. Your sorcerer (without scribe scroll) has it memorized. Does it now become a 7th level scroll, despite the fact that it is being crafted by a cleric with scribe scroll?
Did you even read my last post? You can designate any of the people collaborating as the crafter, and per the rules, "The level of such spells depends on the caster crafting the wand." Thus, if the Cleric is the designated crafter, it doesn't matter who provides the spell, the Cleric version of the spell is used, i.e. 5th level divine spell.
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It might require some kind of diplomacy check.Diplomacy check? "I'll pay you 750gp for a custom 1st level wand that I'll provide the spell for, take it or leave it." If the Cleric would be willing to craft a wand of a Cleric 1st level spell, there's no reason for them not to craft the desired 1st level Savage Maw wand. And now I imagina a germaphobic Cleric who doesn't allow anyone else in their workplace...
Let's say you have a cleric crafing a plane shift scroll for your party. He says he'd have to wait until tomorrow to craft it because he doesn't have it memorized. Your sorcerer (without scribe scroll) has it memorized. Does it now become a 7th level scroll, despite the fact that it is being crafted by a cleric with scribe scroll?Did you even read my last post? You can designate any of the people collaborating as the crafter, and per the rules, "The level of such spells depends on the caster crafting the wand." Thus, if the Cleric is the designated crafter, it doesn't matter who provides the spell, the Cleric version of the spell is used, i.e. 5th level divine spell.
While you can choose who is the crafter, when making a potion, scroll, staff, or wand you have special limitations:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
I have always read that as "you get out exactly what you put in". So, if you put in Savage maw, spell level 1, cast by a level 3 caster, you can't get out Savage maw, spell level 2, caster level 5.
Without that limit, a 1st level Alchemist could make potions of his know formulae at a CL of 20.
.And now I imagina a germaphobic Cleric who doesn't allow anyone else in their workplace...
Social distancing saves lives
now stay outta my shop
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.I have always read that as "you get out exactly what you put in".
That's not what it says. That the sentence starts with "in addition" means it refers to what comes before it in the text, which is the crafting feat exception, which in turn refers to the "ignore prereq for +5 DC" rule right before it. So all that rule portion you quoted does is say that spell prerequisites of potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items can't be replaced by increasing the DC.
If a 13th level Wizard is the designated crafter of a Scroll of Plane Shift, it's an arcane 7th level scroll at CL 13, no matter what. The spell could be provided by a 9th level Cleric, or a 16th level unchained Summoner, doesn't matter. You could even alternate between days of crafting. The spell must be provided, that's what the rules call for - nothing more.
Without that limit, a 1st level Alchemist could make potions of his know formulae at a CL of 20.
There is no need for a limit, because there's nothing in the magic item creation rules that allow increasing the caster level. The rules says "A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own", there is no such rule for creating an item at a higher caster level.
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In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.I have always read that as "you get out exactly what you put in".That's not what it says. That the sentence starts with "in addition" means it refers to what comes before it in the text, which is the crafting feat exception, which in turn refers to the "ignore prereq for +5 DC" rule right before it. So all that rule portion you quoted does is say that spell prerequisites of potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items can't be replaced by increasing the DC.
If a 13th level Wizard is the designated crafter of a Scroll of Plane Shift, it's an arcane 7th level scroll at CL 13, no matter what. The spell could be provided by a 9th level Cleric, or a 16th level unchained Summoner, doesn't matter. You could even alternate between days of crafting. The spell must be provided, that's what the rules call for - nothing more.
Without that limit, a 1st level Alchemist could make potions of his know formulae at a CL of 20.There is no need for a limit, because there's nothing in the magic item creation rules that allow increasing the caster level. The rules says "A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own", there is no such rule for creating an item at a higher caster level.
You are misquoting the rules.
A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.
And, beyond that, the crafter can bypass any prerequisite that isn't mandatory taking +5 to the DC.
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
posted February 2013 | back to top
To make a potion at CL 20 "caster level must be at least 20" is a requirement.
And a level 7 caster can make a Ring of Wishes, that has a minimum CL of 17.
To make a potion at CL 20 "caster level must be at least 20" is a requirement.
No it's not. The requirement is what's in the requirement section. The part of the FAQ you bolded refers to things like the requirement of a Cloak of Resistance. The caster level of an item is not part of the requirement - there's even an FAQ explicitly saying so.
Anyway, it's a moot point, because Brew Potion says "When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level." That is what is preventing a 1st level alchemist form crafting a CL 20 potion, not some "you get out exactly what you put in" thing that that doesn't exist in the rules. You don't use the caster level of the spell put in, you set the caster level (to ≥ min CL and ≤ your CL). The caster level of rings, wondrous items etc. work differently.
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To make a potion at CL 20 "caster level must be at least 20" is a requirement.No it's not. The requirement is what's in the requirement section. The part of the FAQ you bolded refers to things like the requirement of a Cloak of Resistance. The caster level of an item is not part of the requirement - there's even an FAQ explicitly saying so.
Anyway, it's a moot point, because Brew Potion says "When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level." That is what is preventing a 1st level alchemist form crafting a CL 20 potion, not some "you get out exactly what you put in" thing that that doesn't exist in the rules. You don't use the caster level of the spell put in, you set the caster level (to ≥ min CL and ≤ your CL). The caster level of rings, wondrous items etc. work differently.
But neither Scribe scroll nor Craft wand has that text or something similar, so a first level wizard can scribe a scroll of a 1 level spell with a Cl of 20, and a 3rd level caster can make a wand with a CL of 20.
And as I have already pointed out, the general rules don't limit your CL, so the potions are an outlier.
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Beside the CL, you are making a questionable when you say that by selecting the crafter it is possible to make potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items with a spell that has a different spell level from the one you put into the magic item.
Read the procedures for making the items:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or
must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends).
The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires.
In all instances you must have prepared the spell that should be put into the item. Not a different spell with the same name.
Savage maw, spell level 1 is different from Savage maw, spell level 2.Protection from evil, Divine is different from Protection from evil, Arcane