Negative levels from Raise Dead

[glass]

Last night our party wizard was trying to get away from one encounter and accidentally triggered a second, resulting in his getting halberded to death before anyone could help him. We just about have enough cash for a Raise Dead and a couple or Restorations, but reading the former left us with a question.

The spell says you get negative levels "as if you had been hit by a creature with energy drain", and energy drain says you get one attempt at a save 24 hours later.

Except that the DC for energy drain is based on the creature, which in this case does not actually exist. So how do you determine the DC?

Or, did it mean gain negative levels "as if you have been hit by a creature with energy drain and already failed the saves"?

EDIT: Although I am a regular GM, I am not the GM of this particular campaign. However, the guy who is the GM tends to trust my judgement on rules matters and often looks to me for answers on cases like this. Which is usually fine, becuase I usually know the answers. But this time I don't....

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glass.

[vhok]

i would say its the DC of the spell. so its based on whoever cast it.

[Wonderstell]

Raise Dead:

You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than 1 day per caster level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell gains two permanent negative levels when it is raised, just as if it had been hit by an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell.

A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current HD. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.

A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.

***

Energy Drain:

This attack saps a living opponent’s vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it bestows twice the listed number of negative levels. Unless otherwise specified in the creature’s description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour. Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the draining creature’s racial HD + the draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.

***

'

The spell description says that the target "gains two permanent negative levels", and the saving throw to remove negative levels is to prevent them from becoming permanent. So there would be no saving throw because the result you're trying to avoid has already happened.

[vhok]

oh its perm neg levels i didn't notice, i just dealt with temp ones in my game so my brain was thinking of that.

[Claxon]

And permanent negative levels can be removed, it's just harder to do so.

[glass]

Wonderstell wrote:

The spell description says that the target "gains two permanent negative levels", and the saving throw to remove negative levels is to prevent them from becoming permanent. So there would be no saving throw because the result you're trying to avoid has already happened.

I think you must be right, although that obviously does make the "just as if it had been hit by an energy-draining creature" wrong. But they cannot both be right, and the lack of an obvious DC clearly tips things in favour of "permanent" rather than "just like...".

vhok wrote:

i would say its the DC of the spell. so its based on whoever cast it.

Moot now, since there are no saves. But that would not have worked - why would a better caster cast a raise dead that was harder to recover from?

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glass.

[Derklord]

How come no one has quoted the actual relevant rules?

"Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them." CRB pg. 562

The "just as if it had been hit by an energy-draining creature" part of the spell description is an artifact from the 3.5 version of the spell. It has not actual relevance, and really it should read "(see Appendix 1)", just like they altered Enervation.