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Hi, so I was looking up some advanced rogue talents and then I encountered stalker talent advanced talent which reads:
I have some questions about it, I thought since my sneak attack counts as a hidden strike for determining the effects of a talent, talents that make me deal reduced hidden strike damage would make me deal my sneak attack damage but my friend said otherwise so I want someone to explain how the heck it's always 5d4 to me. The talent example we had was twisting fear.
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Here's the key phrase from Stalker Talent:
Her sneak attack counts as a hidden strike with reduced damage for the purpose of determining the effects of her vigilante talent
And here's the explanation of what "hidden strike with reduced damage" means (from the Vigilante class feature)
A stalker gains an ability called hidden strike, which allows him to deal an extra 1d8 points of precision damage on melee attacks (or ranged attacks from within 30 feet) against foes who are unaware of his presence, who consider him an ally, or who are made flat-footed by startling appearance (see page 17). This extra damage increases by 1d8 at 3rd level and every 2 vigilante levels thereafter. A stalker vigilante can also deal hidden strike damage to a target that he is flanking or that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, but in these cases, the damage dice are reduced to d4s.
So a stalker vigilante does d8 damage with hidden strike when the foe is completely unprepared (generally the initial surprise attack), but d4s any other time. Stalker Talent says "you always use the stalker's reduced damage (d4s)" with your stalker talent.
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I'm not sure I quite understand, when I read the key phrase I take it like my sneak damage (whatever it is let's say 6d6 to be clear) is my reduced damage hidden strike. Also I still fail to see how it doesn't progress with my level and stays at 5d6/5d4 just because it says my effective vigilante level is 10.
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I'm not sure I quite understand, when I read the key phrase I take it like my sneak damage (whatever it is let's say 6d6 to be clear) is my reduced damage hidden strike. Also I still fail to see how it doesn't progress with my level and stays at 5d6/5d4 just because it says my effective vigilante level is 10.
For the purposes of selecting and using this talent, she counts as a 10th-level vigilante with the stalker specialization, regardless of her actual rogue level. Her sneak attack counts as a hidden strike with reduced damage for the purpose of determining the effects of her vigilante talent. . .
No matter how many rogue levels you have, you count as a 10th level stalker vigilante when using this talent. However you're using it, whenever you're using it, you do all the calculations as if you are a 10th level stalker vigilante.
So how much damage does a 10th level stalker do with a hidden strike with reduced damage? 5d4.
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5d6 counts as the "reduced" amount. It doesn't lower to 5d4. The # of d6 will increase with more rogue levels.
Both those statements are incorrect.
A "hidden strike with reduced damage" is defined in the Vigilante Specialization ability. It uses d4s instead of d8s.
And I don't see how you can possibly take the text of Stalker Talent which says
for the purposes of selecting and using this talent, she counts as a 10th-level vigilante with the stalker specialization, regardless of her actual rogue level.
As anything other than "calculate as if you are a 10th level stalker vigilante."
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"Her sneak attack counts as a hidden strike with reduced damage for the purpose of determining the effects of her vigilante talent" means the regular value (5d6 in this case) counts as the requirement for determining entry's of the talent. It DOESN'T change 5d6 into 5d4
No where does it say "reduce sneak attack to 5d4" it means count the sneak attack (with d6s) as if it were the reduced strike.
"Her sneak attack counts as a hidden strike with reduced damage for the purpose of determining the effects of her vigilante talent" means the regular value (5d6 in this case) counts as the requirement for determining entry's of the talent. It DOESN'T change 5d6 into 5d4
No where does it say "reduce sneak attack to 5d4" it means count the sneak attack (with d6s) as if it were the reduced strike.
For what it's worth, this is how my group plays it. I took twisting fear and deal my normal sneak attack damage as nonlethal.
A "hidden strike with reduced damage" is defined in the Vigilante Specialization ability. It uses d4s instead of d8s.
Irrelevant, because the Rogue Talent overrides that. The Rogue doesn't have a Hidden Strike.
And I don't see how you can possibly take the text of Stalker Talent which says
for the purposes of selecting and using this talent, she counts as a 10th-level vigilante with the stalker specialization, regardless of her actual rogue level.As anything other than "calculate as if you are a 10th level stalker vigilante."
That's because you're completely ignoring the next sentence. "Her sneak attack counts as a hidden strike with reduced damage for the purpose of determining the effects of her vigilante talent."
For level-dependent effects the Rogue counts as a 10th level Stalker. For Hidden Strike dependent effects the Rogue uses their actual Sneak Attack.
Twisting Fear doesn't use the Vigilante level for anything. Therefore, the "counts as a 10th-level vigilante" part of the talent is irrelevant for its effects.
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Twisting Fear doesn't use the Vigilante level for anything. Therefore, the "counts as a 10th-level vigilante" part of the talent is irrelevant for its effects.
Yes, yes it does.
Whenever the vigilante causes an opponent to gain the shaken, frightened, or panicked condition, that opponent takes an amount of nonlethal damage equal to the vigilante’s reduced hidden strike damage,. . .
That bolded part is entirely dependent on the vigilante's level. And specifically uses the reduced amount (d4s).
If you are unable to see or understand the difference between "hidden strike damage" and "level", I can't help you.
Irrelevant for the Rogue Talent.
For "effects of her vigilante talent" the Rogue's "sneak attack counts as a hidden strike". That's what the Rogue Talent says and what you're constantly ignoring because it destroys your argument. Twisting Fear effect is determined by Hidden Strike, and per the above, the Rogue's Sneak Attack counts as that. How the Hidden Strike damage is calculated for Vigilante's is irrelevant.
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Irrelevant for the Rogue Talent.
For "effects of her vigilante talent" the Rogue's "sneak attack counts as a hidden strike". That's what the Rogue Talent says and what you're constantly ignoring because it destroys your argument. Twisting Fear effect is determined by Hidden Strike, and per the above, the Rogue's Sneak Attack counts as that. How the Hidden Strike damage is calculated for Vigilante's is irrelevant.
I am not ignoring it, I quoted it several times. But I also added the text around it. I am not the one ignoring text.
For the purposes of selecting and using this talent, she counts as a 10th-level vigilante with the stalker specialization, . Her sneak attack counts as a hidden strike with reduced damage for the purpose of determining the effects of her vigilante talent. . .
That line doesn't matter, because the talent being discussed has no level-based effects.
Yes, your hidden strike dice scales as you level, but it's not a level based effect of the talent itself.
Arguing the damage you deal is capped based on your level is akin to arguing that a rogue who took the Deceitful Trick has to make their dirty trick with a reduced BAB, or one with Concealed Strike has to treat their Bluff check as if they only had 10 ranks.
That line is only relevant for the effects of talents that directly relate to vigilante level, such as the number of minutes per day you can use a minor aspect with the Animal Patron talent.
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Irrelevant for the Rogue Talent.
For "effects of her vigilante talent" the Rogue's "sneak attack counts as a hidden strike". That's what the Rogue Talent says and what you're constantly ignoring because it destroys your argument. Twisting Fear effect is determined by Hidden Strike, and per the above, the Rogue's Sneak Attack counts as that. How the Hidden Strike damage is calculated for Vigilante's is irrelevant.
I am not ignoring it, I quoted it several times. But I also added the text around it. I am not the one ignoring text.
For the purposes of selecting and using this talent, she counts as a 10th-level vigilante with the stalker specialization, . Her sneak attack counts as a hidden strike with reduced damage for the purpose of determining the effects of her vigilante talent. . .
Counts as doesn't mean becomes equal to. A dog counts as a mammal, but not all mammals are dogs.
"It counts as" means just that. It qualifies as if it were something else, but it doesn't change it into something else. It doesn't change how much sneak attack is being dealt, but that sneak attack is treated the same way (as if it was) reduced hidden strike damage is, except its still sneak attack and deals its sneak attack damage. There's no further reduction, no cap on how much sneak attack damage, etc.|
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To me, it sounds like:
Replace any instance of "hidden strike with reduced damage" (and the like) with the rogue's sneak attack damage.
Replace any instance of class level with 10.
Replace any instance requiring full hidden strike damage with nothing, you get nothing.
correct
Whenever the (rogue) causes an opponent to gain the shaken, frightened, or panicked condition, that opponent takes an amount of nonlethal damage equal to the (rogue's sneak attack) damage, as the stress wears upon its body. A creature can’t take damage from twisting fear more than once per round. Panicked creatures that take damage from twisting fear are too winded even to scream as they flee in terror.