Whirling throw and prone

[Biojoe56]

Hi,

anyone else finds it weird that with Whirling Throw, the thrown subject only falls prone on a critical success? So if you successfully throw a creature 25-30 feet away, they land on their feet....

I would have thaught they would be prone on a success and maybe stunned on a critical success.

What say you???

Jose

[Salamileg]

While it is a little bit of a weird mental image to throw someone 30 feet and have them land on their feet, but it's a powerful enough feat without prone on a success and would be fairly overpowered if it stunned on a crit.

[OrochiFuror]

Its basically a shove that does damage. You get them away from your squishy team mates, forcing the enemy to spend at least one action, sometimes more, to get back into melee. If you can throw it even 5 feet over its speed, that means it needs 2 actions to get back, when you crit and knock it prone, that creatures whole turn is ruined.
Also the throw isn't an attack so you could grab, flurry then throw with a fairly good chance of modest damage and severely limiting the enemies options.

[Jed Roach]

Oh wow! Whirling throw really should have the attack trait because athletics checks do not have the attack trait inherently.

My plan is to trip and punch with flurry of maneuvers, grab with assurance, and throw. Now they are 30ft away and prone.

[shroudb]

Jed Roach wrote:

Oh wow! Whirling throw really should have the attack trait because athletics checks do not have the attack trait inherently.

My plan is to trip and punch with flurry of maneuvers, grab with assurance, and throw. Now they are 30ft away and prone.

it's intended.

there are a few maneuver feats that rely on you first having succesfully maneuver'ed the enemy that do not have the Attack trait.

Think of them as "3rd actions" for maneuver builds.

As for your plan, i think it's far better to "grab" with your actual attack and Trip with the assurance, since Assurance will often not be enough to grab, making your whirlwing throw action fizzle. But the other way you have higher chance of actually nailing the "combo".

Flurry of maneuvers+whirlwind throw is one of my favorite monk builds, and the only character over those years that i've basically build and played twice (with some differences but with the same base stuff)

[Jed Roach]

I was thinking that I would need to change it up based on whether I thought the creature had a higher fort or reflex save and that the mix of creatures was more or less evenly split between the 2. However, it looks like there is a tendency for higher fort saves in general. So, grab-trip-throw is the safer combo in general.

[Captain Morgan]

Jed Roach wrote:

I was thinking that I would need to change it up based on whether I thought the creature had a higher fort or reflex save and that the mix of creatures was more or less evenly split between the 2. However, it looks like there is a tendency for higher fort saves in general. So, grab-trip-throw is the safer combo in general.

Yeah, but you can often tell from a creature's appearance which is higher. Big hulking thing? Time to trip. Waifish fey? Get grabby. Those big guys are also likely going to give a size penalty to whirling throw to boot.

[geniuscodemonkey]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Jed Roach wrote:

I was thinking that I would need to change it up based on whether I thought the creature had a higher fort or reflex save and that the mix of creatures was more or less evenly split between the 2. However, it looks like there is a tendency for higher fort saves in general. So, grab-trip-throw is the safer combo in general.

Yeah, but you can often tell from a creature's appearance which is higher. Big hulking thing? Time to trip. Waifish fey? Get grabby. Those big guys are also likely going to give a size penalty to whirling throw to boot.

Not if you have assurance with Athletics. Assurance ignores all modifiers, so whether they are big or really big it doesn't matter, you can still throw them as long as they fail their save.

[Guntermench]

It does matter, bigger enemies are more likely to have high fortitude. So you're less likely to succeed with Assurance unless you're higher level than them.

[HammerJack]

geniuscodemonkey wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Jed Roach wrote:

I was thinking that I would need to change it up based on whether I thought the creature had a higher fort or reflex save and that the mix of creatures was more or less evenly split between the 2. However, it looks like there is a tendency for higher fort saves in general. So, grab-trip-throw is the safer combo in general.

Yeah, but you can often tell from a creature's appearance which is higher. Big hulking thing? Time to trip. Waifish fey? Get grabby. Those big guys are also likely going to give a size penalty to whirling throw to boot.

Not if you have assurance with Athletics. Assurance ignores all modifiers, so whether they are big or really big it doesn't matter, you can still throw them as long as they fail their save.

Aside from the deep thread necromancy, this is not quite right. Whirling Throw is not a save, but a roll against Fortitude DC. Their size doesn't affect whether assurance will succeed, but their Fort DC absolutely does, and Assurance will only work on things below your level unless they have a particularly low fort for their level. And trying to estimate which things have high or low fort from their description is good advice.

[Pixel Popper]

Biojoe56 wrote:

Hi,

anyone else finds it weird that with Whirling Throw, the thrown subject only falls prone on a critical success? So if you successfully throw a creature 25-30 feet away, they land on their feet....

I would have thaught they would be prone on a success and maybe stunned on a critical success.

What say you???

Jose

I envision it as the target flips or twirls to hit that "hero landing" (three-point stance) or sinilar on a standard success. On a critical success, they're thrown so hard the impact prevents landing or so fast they don't have time to twirl into the landing.

[Pixel Popper]

Archetyping to get Combat Grab helps helps w/ grabbing high Fort foes. Trip + Combat Grab + Whirling Throw is fun.