Hello,
I've been looking at using a Grave Knight in my homebrew, but they seem quite powerful for a level 10 monster.
Theoretically, a Grave Knight would be a "tough fight" for 4 level 3 characters, but my characters are level 4.
My specific hangup is the Devastating Blast which seems quite nasty at 6d12 damage (dc29 reflex) every 1d4 rounds.
From a variance perspective, a PC that fails their reflex save seems likely to straight-up die if the Grave Knight rolls on the higher end of 6d12 damage. Even average damage (39) seems quite nasty.
To add insult to injury, a +21 frost bow attack seems likely to crit many players.
I'm imagining a Grave Knight winning initiative, critting a player for ~30+ damage with a frost bow, and then just Devastating Blast to finish that player off while buttering up the rest of the party. If the remaining players can't kill the Grave Knight THAT TURN, he stands a 25% chance to simply rinse and repeat (or use his greatsword).
Can someone help me understand why this monster seems so nasty compared to other level 10 monsters? My players have the appropriate treasure for their levels, and this all seems like a recipe for a TPK.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Why are you sending a level 10 monster at level 4 PCs (and by what theory would you possibly consider it against level 3s!?) That's not a tough fight, that's waaaaay beyond Extreme encounter. Fighting things 6 levels above you is suicidal.
A single creature 4 levels above the party is Extreme. The encounter building rules don't even categorize things at +6 or +7.
HammerJack wrote: Why are you sending a level 10 monster at level 4 PCs (and by what theory would you possibly consider it against level 3s!?) That's not a tough fight, that's waaaaay beyond Extreme encounter. Fighting things 6 levels above you is suicidal.
A single creature 4 levels above the party is Extreme. The encounter building rules don't even categorize things at +6 or +7.
So then I may be misunderstanding the encounter building rules.
If the PCs are 4th level, they can handle 4 4th level monsters as a "moderate" encounter.
However, 2 6th level monsters would be "extreme"?
So, what I'm looking for in a solo boss is a single 8th-level monster?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
A single 8th level boss will give you an extreme encounter for a party of 4th level PCs, yes. Extreme meaning that you could expect roughly a 50% chance that they all die, assuming that they start the fight with all of their resources.
As I understand it, a moderate encounter for four lvl 4 PCs would be two level 4 monsters or one level 6 monster.
As Hammerjack notes, a 8th level boss against level 4 PCs is a valid fight, but you run a high risk of multiple character deaths, and almost certainly guarantee at least one.
In general, that's not the sort of fight I would throw at players except at the end of a campaign.
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Thank you both for helping me not to kill my PCs
markrivett wrote: HammerJack wrote: Why are you sending a level 10 monster at level 4 PCs (and by what theory would you possibly consider it against level 3s!?) That's not a tough fight, that's waaaaay beyond Extreme encounter. Fighting things 6 levels above you is suicidal.
A single creature 4 levels above the party is Extreme. The encounter building rules don't even categorize things at +6 or +7.
So then I may be misunderstanding the encounter building rules.
If the PCs are 4th level, they can handle 4 4th level monsters as a "moderate" encounter.
However, 2 6th level monsters would be "extreme"?
So, what I'm looking for in a solo boss is a single 8th-level monster?
4 equal level is an "extreme" not a "moderete" encounter.
This is how it works:
XP budget (for 4 players):
Trivial: 40
Low 60
Moderate 80
Severe 120
Extreme 160
Creature XP:
Party Level -4 10 Low-threat lackey
Party Level -3 15 Low- or moderate-threat lackey
Party Level -2 20 Any lackey or standard creature
Party Level -1 30 Any standard creature
Party Level 40 Any standard creature or low-threat boss
Party Level +1 60 Low- or moderate-threat boss
Party Level +2 80 Moderate- or severe-threat boss
Party Level +3 120 Severe- or extreme-threat boss
Party Level +4 160 Extreme-threat solo boss
You add the XP of each creature till you reach the desired amount for the encounter.
So, 4 equal level creatures (so party level +0 xp) are 4*40 =160
!60 xp is an Extreme encounter (since it means that the fight is basically 50-50 on who will win)
Vs a party of 4th level, a level 8 Boss (party level+4) is already 160 XP by himself (so another extreme encounter)
and etc
markrivett wrote:
So then I may be misunderstanding the encounter building rules.
If the PCs are 4th level, they can handle 4 4th level monsters as a "moderate" encounter.
However, 2 6th level monsters would be "extreme"?
So, what I'm looking for in a solo boss is a single 8th-level monster?
You seem to be misunderstanding the encounter building rules. You can find them at Archives of Nethys.
A moderate encounter is 80 XP, which is the same as two same-level creatures or one level+2 creature. A moderate encounter in PF2 is not a "cakewalk" the same way one in PF1 or 5e is — it's definitely one that's going to give you a workout, and cost some resources, but not likely to actually kill anyone. A severe encounter, which is your "regular" boss fight, is 120 XP. That's three same-level creatures, two level+1 creatures, or one level+3 creature. Infamously, the first AP adventure for PF2 has the party facing a level 7 creature at 4th level, and it is amazingly dangerous.
The strongest creatures you should have facing a party are level+4 creatures. A single level+4 creature is an extreme encounter all by itself, which is "too challenging for most uses" and "appropriate for a fully rested group of characters that can go all-out, for the climactic encounter at the end of an entire campaign, or for a group of veteran players using advanced tactics and teamwork". A level+6 creature would basically pulverize the whole party in two or three rounds.
Oooh, it just occurred to me... are you reading the encounter budget table as saying a moderate encounter being 80 XP plus 20 XP per character? That's not how it works. It's 80 XP for four characters, plus or minus 20 XP for every character above or below that.
Thank you all for helping me to better understand encounter building.
I already have an encounter planned for tonight that I need to dial back.
You are doing your part to save fictional lives here.
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