If an Arcane Trickster delivers a touch range spell with an unarmed strike against an opponent who is flanked/denied Dex bonus, can they add Sneak Attack damage twice with their capstone ability?
"At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage."
That is to say, the range of the spell is touch, so it's delivered via a melee touch attack or unarmed strike.
That having been said, there's a spell called Blood Crow Strike that allows for ranged unarmed strikes:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-crow-strike/
If you cast blood crow strike you immediately lose the held charge of any touch spell.
Adding the same bonus twice gets you overlap rather than stacking, generally. This is true even for untyped bonuses, exactly the same bonus won't stack with itself unless it's stated to do so.
Well, what I mean is, you cast a touch spell, then deliver it with an unarmed strike. Assuming the target is subject to a sneak attack, the unarmed strike attack should get the bonus damage.
However, with the Arcane Trickster, the SPELL gains the bonus damage from sneak attack, when normally it would not (actually, I'm not 100% sure why a shocking grasp couldn't apply sneak attack normally, I recall this was legal in 3.5, but I'm not sure about Pathfinder).
Yeah, shocking grasp has an attack roll and given appropriate circumstances (flanking, surprise, invisibility or whatever) can sneak attack. The arcane trickster capstone lets you sneak attack with spells without an attack roll - burning hands or whatever.
IMO sneak attack will add only once though since as I said it's the same bonus from the same source.
Hm. See, the way I was looking at this, the sequence is:
1) cast touch spell (we'll use shocking grasp as the example).
2) hold the charge of the spell.
3) make an unarmed strike while holding the charge.
4) IF unarmed strike meets requirements for sneak attack, THEN add sneak attack damage.
5) touch spell is delivered by the unarmed strike.
6) IF requirements for sneak attack are met, Uncanny Trickster 10 adds sneak attack to damage of spell.
If sneak attacking someone with a flaming short sword you wouldn't add sneak attack to the piercing damage and the flaming damage separately. I don't think this'd be different.
Well yes, but the flaming is added to the damage of the sword. In this case, shocking grasp is it's own thing. It doesn't add to the damage of the unarmed strike, it is merely delivered by it. So both things are separate damage sources that both qualify for sneak attack. Since Arcane Trickster 10 bypasses the normal rules about how something qualifies for a sneak attack, I don't think there is a rule to prevent it from triggering for both sources, since this is an extreme edge case. I haven't found one, at least.
I did not realize one could have a ranged unarmed strike. How do you do this?
"Touch range" means "a range of touch." With melee touch spells, you can either attempt a melee touch spell or an unarmed strike to deliver it.
Well, what I mean is, you cast a touch spell, then deliver it with an unarmed strike. Assuming the target is subject to a sneak attack, the unarmed strike attack should get the bonus damage.
However, with the Arcane Trickster, the SPELL gains the bonus damage from sneak attack, when normally it would not (actually, I'm not 100% sure why a shocking grasp couldn't apply sneak attack normally, I recall this was legal in 3.5, but I'm not sure about Pathfinder).
Some scenarios that should clarify. Assume that you have 1d3 punch, 5d6 shocking grasp, and 7d6 sneak. Ignoring bonuses.
Touch cases:
1. You TOUCH with Shocking Grasp: 5d6+7d6 electric.
2. You CRIT TOUCH with Shocking Grasp: 10d6+7d6 electric.
3. You TOUCH with a Maximized Shocking Grasp: 30 (60 on crit) + 7d6 electric.
Punch cases.
1. You HIT, discharging shocking grasp: 1d3+7d6 bludgeoning, +5d6 electric.
2. You CRIT: 2d3+7d6 bludgeoning, +10d6 electric.
Note: Not 14d6, as I think that's what you're ultimately asking. Even though your attack has two components (the physical attack and the spell,) it's still one attack, and so only gets one "pool" of Sneak Attack dice.
Spellstrike cases with a Falcata.
1. You HIT: 5d6+7d6 electric, +2d4 slashing.
2. You CRIT: 10d6+7d6 electric, +6d4 slashing. (Spells crit for x2 regardless of the strike used to deliver them!)
3. You miss (holding the charge), then HIT: 2d4+7d6 slashing, +5d6 electric.
4. You miss, then CRIT: 6d4+7d6 slashing, +10d6 slashing.
Note that the change to the sneak attack's damage-type depends on what the attack is. When holding the charge and striking with an unarmed strike or weapon, the physical attack is the primary. When using Spellstrike, the spell attack is the primary.
You don't need Surprise Spells if your attack requires a melee or ranged touch.
If that's how it works, that seems fair, but I don't know why it works that way. I have a rule that says "when you hit a foe with an attack and they are denied Dex" x happens, and another rule that says "when targets of your spells is denied Dex x happens", and I'm not sure where it says "sneak attack can only happen once as the result of a successful attack, even if more than one thing would trigger from that attack".
For example, we know that if you deliver a touch spell with an unarmed strike, and that unarmed strike would be a critical hit, the spell is not considered to be a critical hit as well, since the Magus explicitly has an ability to allow that. Because attacks that do not have an attack roll cannot be critical hits. Which the delivered touch spell does not have an attack roll if it is delivered by another attack.
I mean, imagine this scenario with a spell storing weapon.
"Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires."
So, you attack with the weapon, and if the circumstances for sneak attack would apply, you deal that damage. Then if the target takes damage from the weapon, you can immediately cast, say, vampiric touch.
If the Arcane Trickster still meets the requirements for sneak attack, his level 10 ability says "add the sneak attack damage to the spell". But you're saying, hold on buster, that's not allowed because you already used sneak attack (as I understand your position). And I'm saying, what, RAW, says that's how it works?
Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that if a reading of the rules results in something that seems amazing, it's probably not intended to work that way, and any GM that wants to shut that down doesn't have to show me where it says that in the rulebook to do so, lol. This is all theorycraft for what is an unlikely scenario to actually occur in a real game. I just want to understand the actual reasons why or why not, beyond "common sense".
But I do appreciate the replies, thank you.
if you hit with a weapon and that also applies shocking grasp do you add the shocking grasp damage to the weapon damage? i've always thought they were seperate??
They're separate. The question (which I'm going to research further) is whether they're separate enough to where they both get sneak attack damage within the same attack roll.
That is, the scenario where the shocking grasp punch gets to deal 1d3+7d6 bludgeoning and 5d6+7d6 electric.
if they are separate which of the two does the sneak attack attach to if it only attaches to 1? sneak attack damage type is precision+weapon type damage so which 1 it attaches to does matter
Whichever effect is causing the attack roll.
So for a simple melee-touch attack, it's the spell.
For a punch with a held charge, it's the punch (unarmed strike).
For a magus using Spellstrike, it's the spell.
For a spell-storing weapon, it's the weapon strike's basic damage type.
For a magus using Spellstrike with a spell-storing weapon, it's the spell being used with Spellstrike.
For reference, here is a link to a thread about the interaction between the spell Harm and a Sneak Attack.
Doing a bit more research, since on one level I see the point you're making. On the other, anything that could throw that many d6s should be verified.
RAW doesn't seem to address the interaction.
Older versions of your question:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rzkv?Sneak-attack-on-a-punched-spell
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mcw0?Vampiric-touch-and-Spell-Storing-Questio ns#5
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mcyb?Chill-Touch-Unarmed-Strike-Sneak-Attacks #1
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ue29?Natural-Weapons-Touch-Spells-and-Sneak-A ttack#1
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ru4l?Sneak-Attack-once-per-Attack#1
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rkzo?Spellstrike-and-Surprise-Spells-mix-for# 1
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ugny?Multifacet-questions-on-sneak-attacks#1
That's not comprehensive, but the trend is to the negative. You wouldn't get sneak on both the attack and the spell, if delivering both through one attack action.
While I still feel that the Arcane Trickster's ability throws a spanner into the works the way it is written, it seems that "sneak attack once per attack" is strongly supported enough that, if nothing else, it points towards designer intent. I don't actually think the damage is the problem here, since to attack with a held touch spell generally means you cast the spell on one turn and deliver it on another (barring Magus shenanigans), but I expect 9 out of 10 GM's would rule against it, and if PF1e was still something Paizo worried about it, this would end up being one of those "unwritten rule" discussions, lol.
Thanks for helping to clarify this point!
In this case they are not considered separate attacks. If they were separate attacks they would have their own attack rolls. The other thing to consider is that if they were separate attacks defensive abilities would be applied to each one individually. For example if the target has an ability that gives it a miss chance you would roll separately for each.
About the only way you are going to pull this off is by using the magus spellstrike.
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.
Both of the bolded parts specify this is a single attack that combines the damage of the weapon with the effects of the spell. The use of the singular attack in the second bolded section makes it very clear that they are not separate.
As mentioned above, Sneak Attack bonus damage is normally only added to the attack (in the OP's example, the unarmed strike), not any "riders" on the attack that also cause damage (in the OP's example, a touch spell such as shocking grasp that goes off when the unarmed strike hits). No separate attack roll, no Sneak Attack damage; just like you don't get to add Sneak Attack damage to a spell effect from a spell storing weapon, only the weapon attack.
As far as I know, there is only one RAW combination that allows "stacking" of Sneak Attack on both a regular attack and a spell effect "riding" on that attack: Imbue Arrow from arcane archer + Surprise Spells from arcane trickster. You can do normal weapon damage plus Sneak Attack damage with the arrow to a flat-footed target and normal spell damage plus Sneak Attack damage on all flat-footed creatures within the spell area. Of course, you have to be at least snakebite striker brawler 1/[wizard or sorcerer] 4/arcane trickster 6/arcane archer 2/arcane trickster +4 with the feats Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow), as well as gaining longbow and/or shortbow proficiency somehow, to pull it off; probably with Quicken Spell and a Quickened true strike.