
Mikemad |
Hey guys,
So I've been doing a bunch of research into summoning lately and have run into several guides/threads on these forums regarding the topic. Especially at high levels, people generally seem to rate summoned creatures with spellcasting abilities far higher than beat sticks. It is usually cited that at high levels, a typical summoned monster can't really keep up with the AC/DR of the opponents. Its gone so far that none of the guides I've seen have even mentioned the fact that summoned animals gain either the celestial or fiendish template depending on your alignment (you get to choose if you're neutral, so you can always pick the more beneficial one), and when people on here mention it, it's normally in terms of the DR gained.
But these things can smite.
Lets have a look at the dire tiger. It's a typical beat stick on the summon creature 6 list with 3 attacks plus pounce rake (meaning you'll get 5 attacks every time you charge). Note that it's attack bonus is about 5 higher than most of the other stuff on the list. It also has 14 hit dice.
Just for fun, let's set up a typical combat encounter. We are level 13 and have access to summon monster 7. Because we're a good summoning build, we have augmented/superior summons as well as a greater rod of giant summoning. There is a bard or evangelist cleric in the party granting everybody +3 attack and damage through bardic performance. Furthermore, this campaign is hard. The typical opponent we fight is CR 17. According to the monster creation table (http://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/monsterCreation.html), this means a typical opponent will have an AC of 32 and 270 HP. It's also likely going to have DR 15 or something but that bit isn't particularly important.
Turn one, combat begins, bardic performance goes up and we use summon monster 7 to call in 3 celestial dire tigers at +8 str and con. They all pounce/rake and smite evil at the same time. At this moment, they have an attack bonus of 27, a damage bonus of 29 and they ignore all DR of the smitten opponent.
They deal, on average,
drumroll please,
467.16 damage per round (hits 80% of attacks, 15 attacks total).
WHAT??!
Why is nobody talking about the smite ability?
This thing isn't just good its hilarious. It's better than basically everything on the summon monster 7 list and about half of the stuff on the summon monster 8 list. Yeah, they don't tank as well as most of the outsiders but who cares? A dead monster does no damage and even if they survive, if the DM is attacking your summons, you've basically already won.
I dunno, I've been weirdly frustrated by all the discussion of combat control and utility casting when this cat can vaporize an encounter 6 CR higher than you.
"But Mike, it has to compete with the shadow demon dealing 1d6 damage as a touch attack and casting shadow conjuration"

avr |

Level 13 is when PF is breaking. Yes, you can run it; no, standard monsters don't stand a chance, especially on an open field. This is far from the only way for a couple of level 13 characters to destroy a CR 17 enemy with no risk.
Either you beef up enemies considerably, or you accept that the game's a walkover, or you let the game end and start a new one.

Mikemad |
Level 13 is when PF is breaking. Yes, you can run it; no, standard monsters don't stand a chance, especially on an open field. This is far from the only way for a couple of level 13 characters to destroy a CR 17 enemy with no risk.
Either you beef up enemies considerably, or you accept that the game's a walkover, or you let the game end and start a new one.
Fair enough, maybe I shouldn't have chosen level 13 for my example. Consider level 11 instead then, using dire lions and summon creature 6 against a CR15 (30 AC). They still deal around 250 DPR and one-round it.

Meirril |
Turn one, combat begins, bardic performance goes up and we use summon monster 7 to call in 3 celestial dire tigers at +8 str and con. They all pounce/rake and smite evil at the same time. At this moment, they have an attack bonus of 27, a damage bonus of 29 and they ignore all DR of the smitten opponent.
That isn't what a Celestial Template's Smite Evil does.
Celestial Template says it adds Cha bonus to hit and damage. Unlike the Paladin Smite Evil, the one in this template says nothing about ignoring the target's DR. Don't give the monster more than the Template says just because the ability has a similar name.
Tigers are also don't average well. Tigers get 3 attacks and if you hit with 2 claw attacks, you get 2 more claw attacks. One blown roll and you miss with 3 attacks (because 2 of them don't happen).
Also your damage adds...what did OP use for the calculation? Dire Tiger has a base of +8, +2 from aug summoning, +2 from giant rod, +3 from bard. +0 from Smite Evil (10 cha = 0 mod). +15 means against most opponents this tiger is doing 2d8 damage per attack if we assume 15 DR it can't overcome (and natural weapons have a hard time overcoming DR).

Mikemad |
It does not give Cha to damage, it gives hit dice to damage. Also pounce has text specifically stating you can make rake attacks, it says nothing about having to hit first.
You are correct though, the template doesn't specifically state it ignores dr like the paladin smite.
Edit: Oh, I see, you were thinking of rend, not rake.

Meirril |
It does not give Cha to damage, it gives hit dice to damage. Also pounce has text specifically stating you can make rake attacks, it says nothing about having to hit first.
You are correct though, the template doesn't specifically state it ignores dr like the paladin smite.
Edit: Oh, I see, you were thinking of rend, not rake.
Yep, was thinking Rend.
Since you're Dire Tiger needs to Pounce on the first round to get the Rake attacks, add +2 to hit for charging. The extra 14 damage per attack from Smite will go a long way to overcoming DR anyways...but only against the single creature they smite.

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The best laugh I had in a game recently was caused by the look on the wizards face when the GM pointed out that the Bad Guy had Protection from Good up - and even though the entire party was Neutral, the Celestial critters the wiz got with his Summon Monster V were not - "oh wait, that means they can't even swing on him at all doesn't it? wow - and I thought that buff spell was useless..."