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Whoever made the PF2 druid made a super fun, versatile, and powerful class. The druid in PF1 was a good class, but I didn't find it all that interesting or fun to play. It was much easier to build a crazy damage caster with a wizard or sorcerer. The druid had some cool elements, but shapechanging and druid orders overall didn't seem that memorable. Over the years maybe one player has played a high level druid in my groups.
But man, this PF2 druid is so much fun. They nuke hard. They have great order abilities. Their feats are worth taking. They can heal. They do a lot.
Even tonight I launched a chain lightning against 8 targets with the following result rolling 79 damage: 2 successes, 5 fails, and a critical fail doing 631 damage. Then next 2 rounds turned into a blue dragon, flew up and breath weaponed two targets for another 82 points. Total damage in 3 or 4 rounds of combat at lvl 12 was 700 damage. She obliterated the encounter almost alone.
The druid has been performing really, really well over the course of 3 and 1/3 books in the Extinction Curse AP. The druid is the most fun class I've played to date in PF2. So much versatility and power. You can really build a monster druid.
Whoever designed the druid or the team that did, kudos to you. You made the druid super fun on top of being powerful. They play great in so many ways.
It is a cool class but a bit much with wild shape and animal companions being particularly complex and hard to grasp the optimal use cases of.
Also starting as wild shape druid and not unlocking the feature s you'd expect until lvl 3 sucks. Oh and class feats at lvl 2 are a bit lacklustre which often leads to order explorer and another anathema to juggle.
I like the druid, especially at 19th where they can transform into a kaiju which is super cool.
Not a fan of the shape changing, in general, though. For the most part you're transforming into puny versions of existing monsters, which sort of takes the fun out of it, for me.
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I like the druid, especially at 19th where they can transform into a kaiju which is super cool.
Not a fan of the shape changing, in general, though. For the most part you're transforming into puny versions of existing monsters, which sort of takes the fun out of it, for me.
I wouldn't say 'puny'. Battle Forms tend to actually be better in a straight fight than the creatures they make you resemble, though admittedly often less versatile.
I mean, a 7th level Druid who turns into a tiger has better stats than an actual tiger in just about every way. They don't get some ancillary stuff like Grab or Sneak Attack, but their base stats are better in basically all metrics.
Now, you can't really turn into a tiger before 7th level when 4th level Animal Form kicks in and lets you be Large, but that's a separate matter entirely.
I've had two druids in my campaigns now and yeah, they're great. The players love them, they always have options, they can fill a lot of roles, and their options all seem interesting and fun. Especially having wild shape as a focus spell, I'm happy that they can transform frequently and starting at level 3 they can start to fill in as a mini-martial.
I didn't mean puny as in weaker. I should have just said "smaller" to make it more clear.
It's just that you're, for the most part, are always going to be a much smaller version of what you're turning into while the spell remains relevant to the druid. Like transforming into a large dinosaur when the minimum on the list is huge, or a huge sized Purple Worm/Sea Serpent/Phoenix when they're all gargantuan.
It's good combat wise, but the cool factor of it all just isn't there, for me.
Not a huge fan of druid myself. I find the orders other than wild to be kind of dull. If I want to play a primal caster, sorcerers and witches appeal to me a lot more. But it definitely seems like it really delivers on the druid fantasy for people who like that.
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I didn't mean puny as in weaker. I should have just said "smaller" to make it more clear.
It's just that you're, for the most part, are always going to be a much smaller version of what you're turning into while the spell remains relevant to the druid. Like transforming into a large dinosaur when the minimum on the list is huge, or a huge sized Purple Worm/Sea Serpent/Phoenix when they're all gargantuan.
I mean, for most forms that depends on what level you are and what you turn into. You can turn into a Large Deinonychus and be more sizable than the base creature, and you hit Huge and the right size for most other dinosaurs only one spell level later.
Monstrosity Form specifically is a bit disappointing in this regard, I'll grant you, but it's one spell not the whole category.
It's good combat wise, but the cool factor of it all just isn't there, for me.
I don't see anything wrong with needing to be 9th level to become Huge. That seems reasonable enough to me.
My problem with Druid is how their feats works, most of their feats are order specific, making really hard to make a pure Druid without going into another order.
APG archetypes helps a lot but pure Druid basically builds itself and that is kinda boring.
I feel like they are probably reluctant to hand out gargantuan size critters because they would really slow down play. 5he issue is they start at 20 feet by 20 feet but can range up the size of city blocks. How many spaces a purple worm or whatever takes doesn't really matter when the worm is a solo enemy in its natural environment, but it suddenly matters quite a bit when it is one of several combatants manifesting in an enclosed environment. Figuring out if they can actually fit on the map would really slow down play.
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The two kinds of Druids I am most interested in (wild shaper that sticks to a single, improving form and bad touch melee druid) aren't well-supported at the moment. Hoping for some more of that stuff in the upcoming magic supplement.
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I can definitely say Druid seems like a fun class to play. They actually are so much fun the APG had to give all players access to familiars and animal companions!
I am only level 5 but animal companions are great imo. They don't feel overpowered and really add a lot of variety to your potential turns. Unlike many other games where animal companions basically take no thought and just go by themselves.
Maybe I am still in the "new game mode" but honestly every single class looks great and flavorful with how versatile the system is.
The best part imo even if you don't like the feats from your own class there are TONS of other options.
My character was originally a Druid/Bard Dedication but switched to Bard/Beastmaster since it combines the animal companion with all the features of Bard. I will miss the nukes though.
I have zero experience with the Wizard though but honestly their base features seem fine. Even the non caster have so many fun options too.
Druids are awesome - but what else did you expect I would say?
Full spellcasting in a very good list with blasting, healing and polymorph utility, but a moderate amount of buffing and control.
Not quite the depth of some of the other specialist casters but the focus spells are all really excellent and make up for it.
4 good orders. Yes Wild Shape and Animal require a fairly significant feat investment, but you can easily dabble in Leaf and Storm and do other things. Most players will probably take 2 orders. The feats are significant and you really fell like you get something for your choices.
Given a bit of time the druid can assist in any role in a party. But they don't overshadow any specialist. Flexibility and utility is its own virtue.
The down side is that the polymorph rules still have some rough edges you can argue about. Different groups are going to play these a bit differently.
All in all pretty cool.
Druids are awesome - but what else did you expect I would say?
Full spellcasting in a very good list with blasting, healing and polymorph utility, but a moderate amount of buffing and control.
Not quite the depth of some of the other specialist casters but the focus spells are all really excellent and make up for it.
4 good orders. Yes Wild Shape and Animal require a fairly significant feat investment, but you can easily dabble in Leaf and Storm and do other things. Most players will probably take 2 orders. The feats are significant and you really fell like you get something for your choices.
Given a bit of time the druid can assist in any role in a party. But they don't overshadow any specialist. Flexibility and utility is its own virtue.
The down side is that the polymorph rules still have some rough edges you can argue about. Different groups are going to play these a bit differently.
All in all pretty cool.
Useful flexibility I appreciate for sure. The druid has a lot of useful flexibility.
My issues with form sizes has been the opposite, tbh. Mandatory size changes with heightening can make shapeshifting really problematic in confined spaces.
if only there was a way to become a druid without becoming a servant to some other force like an arcane druid or something then it would be my main class since it has mostly everything i like (but the servant part is too much of a drawback)
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My issues with form sizes has been the opposite, tbh. Mandatory size changes with heightening can make shapeshifting really problematic in confined spaces.
Honestly I just really want a shapeshifter that can stay a Medium Wolf for her entire career and have that be good.
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if only there was a way to become a druid without becoming a servant to some other force like an arcane druid or something then it would be my main class since it has mostly everything i like (but the servant part is too much of a drawback)
'Service' is technically the word used, but nature itself isn't an intelligent being. Serving it is like serving any other abstract concept (like serving justice or serving knowledge), it's more a statement of philosophical principle than serving in a traditional sense.
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My issues with form sizes has been the opposite, tbh. Mandatory size changes with heightening can make shapeshifting really problematic in confined spaces.Honestly I just really want a shapeshifter that can stay a Medium Wolf for her entire career and have that be good.
Animal Barbarian can sort of do this, but it's admittedly only while raging.
Animal Barbarian can sort of do this, but it's admittedly only while raging.My issues with form sizes has been the opposite, tbh. Mandatory size changes with heightening can make shapeshifting really problematic in confined spaces.Honestly I just really want a shapeshifter that can stay a Medium Wolf for her entire career and have that be good.
The forced size change is a limitation. But it is always short term and chosen. I think you have options that are only size large not huge at a lot of levels, plus the Green Man is medium. Some of the forms are better at this than others. Unlike the giant barbarian, the druid has something else it can do - cast spells.
if only there was a way to become a druid without becoming a servant to some other force like an arcane druid or something then it would be my main class since it has mostly everything i like (but the servant part is too much of a drawback)'Service' is technically the word used, but nature itself isn't an intelligent being. Serving it is like serving any other abstract concept (like serving justice or serving knowledge), it's more a statement of philosophical principle than serving in a traditional sense.
take a look at "primal phenomenon" and "miracle"
Primal Phenomenon
You request a direct intercession from the natural world. Nature always refuses unnatural requests and might grant a different request (potentially more powerful or better fitting its character) than the one you asked for. A primal phenomenon spell can do any of the following things
miracle
You request aid directly from your divine source. Your divine source always refuses a request out of line with its nature, and it might grant a different request (potentially more powerful or better fitting its nature) than the one you asked for. A casting of miracle can do any of the following things.
now take a look at "alter reality" and "wish"
alter reality
You use your occult lore and the power of your mind to manipulate the spiritual multiverse, resulting in any of the following effects:
wish
You state a wish, making your greatest desire come true. A wish spell can produce any one of the following effects.
do you see the difference?
yes this might not comes into play at all just thing such as immortality from timeless nature but nonetheless its something that i care deeply about
its kind of why i always chose wizard over sorcerer in pf1 even if sorcerer casting was better i still picked wizards because the of the merita wizard isn't born with magic all the power he has is entirely due to his own effort and merit
this isn't even a matter of whether clerics and druids have power on their own its more of matter of being a full caster [10th level slot] getting to level 20 attaining immortality and telling those people such as pharasma i own then absolutely nothing
for instance if i as level 20 immortal wizard get attacked by psychophombs while cursed by pharasma because "i have live too long" i wanna see what BS excuse a paladin would gimme to explain me why i'm considered evil
if a druid has his immortality revoked by nature i would say nature is perfectly within its rights here same goes for any cleric who dies because hsi deity got a request form pharasma
i would say i'm fine with wizard, alchemist and bard earned it sorcerer and oracle are arguable and cleric druid and witch are granted
alchemists got robbed blind of their immortality so that guy from thuvia could feel special (which i find disrespectful)
bard were buffed to full casters which i liked, they are now basically what i wish wizards were with great knowledge checks spontanous casting ability to learn spell and even from other lists
really thought i just don't like the music thing i wish could just trade it with something else if i could make make him into a wizard by removing the music part i would
but again those 3 classes suffer from the issue of no immortality
monk in this sense isn't bad at all he is a martial but is completely self reliant, earned by merit and has the ability to become immortal as well as perform supernatural feats like going to the ethereal plane and even eschew the need for food water etc...
i really liked how 1e monks could arguably become magical creature specially the qigong monk (with the casting-like abilities)
unfortunately 2e monk has no 10th level caster archetype for it and in my eyes since the wish equivalent is the point of a caster the rest is basically irrelevant one might as well not bother with casting at all
if they added a qigong monk with 10th level spell and the option to chose between occult and divine lists i would be definitively play it
I really love druids with Free Archetype or Double Class Feats. Without those I feel pretty constrained.
The class itself is awesome though, and I'm definitely planning on making a Dragon themed kobold druid.
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for instance if i as level 20 immortal wizard get attacked by psychophombs while cursed by pharasma because "i have live too long" i wanna see what BS excuse a paladin would gimme to explain me why i'm considered evil
If Psychopomps attacked you in such a case, it would not be because you are Evil (they do not care about this) but because your continued existence weakens the cycle of life and death (and this they care A LOT about).
Now my druid is going to have to destroy Archsage20's
character for extending his life through unnatural means. It's a good thing they gave the druid such good capability for taking out a wizard or alchemist in this edition or that would have been a problem.
Animal Barbarian can sort of do this, but it's admittedly only while raging.My issues with form sizes has been the opposite, tbh. Mandatory size changes with heightening can make shapeshifting really problematic in confined spaces.Honestly I just really want a shapeshifter that can stay a Medium Wolf for her entire career and have that be good.
I was gonna retort with "Animal Rage is a mid-level feat so Barb only really works for hybrid characters" but rechecking that feat I am reminded it does basically nothing unless your animal has an unusual movement type or is a frog. Since four legs doesn't innately increase your CMD in this edition there's really nothing stopping you from saying that your base rage just involves a full-on polymorph.
for instance if i as level 20 immortal wizard get attacked by psychophombs while cursed by pharasma because "i have live too long" i wanna see what BS excuse a paladin would gimme to explain me why i'm considered evilIf Psychopomps attacked you in such a case, it would not be because you are Evil (they do not care about this) but because your continued existence weakens the cycle of life and death (and this they care A LOT about).
which would make then massive hypocrites
but if you feel like talking about it make a pharasma morality thread
I've been playing a primal sorcerer who just hit level 9, and while the primal spell list is really good due to having both heals, blasts, and some debuffs and buffs, there is one huge weakness: Will-based spells. There are plenty of Reflex-based blasts, and Fortitude-based debuffs, and even some Fortitude-based blasts, but pretty much the only Will-based spell is fear. I haven't gone through the whole bestiary, but there are lots of Big Beefy Monsters out there that have a strong Fortitude save and a bad Will save.I don't find it fun to play to be honest, but indeed is one of the most ( if not the most ) op classes currently available.
- Primal spells cover up for either damage and healings.
- Animal companion with the best progression ( and the free action doesn't require anything, like the hunter prey ).
- Well rounded in terms of HP/Saves/Proficiency
Being able to target all 3 saves is just the direct offensive use of spells, there are other aproaches open to Primal casters.
It would be wrong if the list could do everything. Primal is weak on debuffs, and will saves in general. However it still has Fear, which is a very solid spell, especially out of a 3rd level slot. There are some others like Blinding Fury - but I am not a fan.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's why I don't see the arcane list as clearly better than the occult or primal. Sure, Arcane can attack all three saves the best. But I'm not sure I'd take that over healing and debuff removal. They all have very good aspects. Occult has synesthesia, one of the best debuffs. Each list has strengths. The most limited list is the Divine list and even it is very good against undead and fiends along with good buffs.
Primal also has the most spells unique to its list of the 4 traditions. Arcane has the fewest, although when I last ran my analysis (pre APG) they had the most spells overall.
That's why I don't see the arcane list as clearly better than the occult or primal. Sure, Arcane can attack all three saves the best. But I'm not sure I'd take that over healing and debuff removal. They all have very good aspects. Occult has synesthesia, one of the best debuffs. Each list has strengths. The most limited list is the Divine list and even it is very good against undead and fiends along with good buffs.
in my opinion divine is the best one because it has access to a lot of spells related to life death and souls that are just not available in arcane and primal
its not just about quantity its about quality raise dead is divine exclusive that alone makes me consider playing a undead bloodline sorcerer
That's why I don't see the arcane list as clearly better than the occult or primal. Sure, Arcane can attack all three saves the best. But I'm not sure I'd take that over healing and debuff removal. They all have very good aspects. Occult has synesthesia, one of the best debuffs. Each list has strengths. The most limited list is the Divine list and even it is very good against undead and fiends along with good buffs.
Yeah, fiends are TOUGH without a divine casting. My one table has an oracle, cleric, and champion and just tore through a whole dungeon of demons. My other table lost their fighter and his soul to a slaver demons, and probably would have been wiped out by an ice devil this week if I had focus fired on any of them.
The barbarian has been so frustrated he sold most of the party's loot to obtain standard grade cold iron and silver weapons and sold his soul and twenty years of his life to a devil for evil resistance.
Undead are definitely harder when you can't just spam 3 action heals, as well.