Anger Nogar |
Hello there. More of an old time 3.5 player, than Pathfinder enthusiast, but when actual game opportunities are rare - beggars can't be choosers (not to mention that the system actually seems to fix many of the 3.5 problems, while creating relatively few new ones).
Anyway, I have the opportunity to take part in a Pathfinder game set in my favorite setting of Eberron (Sorry Golarion) and I have always wanted to play a mark of passage character. I assume most of you are familiar with the lore of the dragonmarked houses, so I wont bore you with explanations - knowledge of Eberron lore is not really relevant to the question anyway.
So. We are using this https://sites.google.com/site/eberronpathfinder/ Pathfinder conversion for Eberron in addition to every Paizo product my group has access to (which is most of them really). No Dreamscared press psionics of Path of War. The game starts at lvl 14 and The Bonus Skills and Feat Tax Rules are in effect. I want to build a viable Blade of Orien PrC (https://sites.google.com/site/eberronpathfinder/conversion-info/classes/pr estige-classes/blade-of-orien) character. My problem is that most of the Pathfinder martial classes seem one or two ideas more powerful than their 3.5 counterparts and the at least of first look the PrC from the conversion (or most Pathfinder PrC in general) don't seem to follow suit.
The PrC in question is Human only and has few things going for it.
- Full BAB
- One additional use per level for your dimensional slide power (short range dimension door basically, usually usable 1/day from the Least True Mark feat)
- Free feat from the Dimensional Agility chain each two levels.
- Some other stuff that has low Cha-based DCs so it is mostly unusable in a reliable manner for the character I have in mind.
This is the build that I currently have in mind:
[1] Fighter (Weapon Master) 1: [Least True Dragonmark (Mark of Passage, Dimension Leap)], [Combat Reflexes], [Iron Will]
[2] Fighter 2: [Deft Maneuvers], Weapon Guard +1
[3] Fighter 3: [Furious Focus], Weapon Training I: Heavy Blades
[4] Slayer 1 (Bounty Hunter) 1: Studied Target, Track
[5] Slayer 2 (Bounty Hunter) 2: Dirty Trick, [Lesser True Dragonmark (Mark of Passage, Dimension Door)]
[6] Blade of Orien 1: [Dimensional Agility]
[7] Blade of Orien 2: [Greater Trip]
[8] Blade of Orien 3: [Dimensional Assault]
[9] Blade of Orien 4: [Tripping Strike]
[10]Blade of Orien 5: [Dimensional Dervish]
[11]Blade of Orien 6: [Critical Focus]
[12]Blade of Orien 7: [Dimensional Maneuvers]
[13]Blade of Orien 8: [Outflank]
[14]Blade of Orien 9: [Dimensional Savant]
[15]Fighter 4: [Critical Versatility][Advanced Weapon Training (Warrior Spirit)]
This would give me a 120 feet dimensional leap 11 times per day and a single 1000 feet dimension door per day. I would be also flank with myself and each critical hit will give me a chance to apply some status effect (usually stager) give me a trip attempt while each trip will give me an AoO. Warrior's spirit in combination with Gloves of Dueling will give me some sweet weapon buffs 3/day (But of course, I would love to make my +3 keen falchion into a +5 keen "bane: the thing in front of me" falchion, tvm!)
My problem is... at 15th level at least in 3.5 - primary caster are already shaping their own universes and a martial character is pretty much useless unless he can deal triple digits in damage each time he is allowed to lay his hands on an enemy for a second. It seems Pathfinder is trying to keep them in check, but... is it enough for the abovementioned character to be viable at that level?
bono_bob |
I know nothing about blade of orien or eberron in general (i was a 3.5 faerun fanboy till I became a pathfinder fanboy) so it is hard for me to comment on your exact damage output. Being able to be a dimension master as a martial character without monk sounds pretty awesome so i will give you tips and tricks for martial put. You seem to have quite the grasp already and that alone should make you ok at later levels (duelist gloves was a solid find)
If going heavy blades, I would advise scimitar over falchion + the item baldric bane. It will allow you to swift action turn the scimitar into a bane of your choice, then you can instead use the weapon training option that grants you shield ac while having the option to 1 hand (grappled) or 2 hand a scimitar.
Power attack is also a lot more powerful in pathfinder for damage output. With that slayer dip you should be able to take feat that adds more sneak dice (i think accomplished sneak something) which will help you take advantage of self flanking.
With crit feats, like stunning crit can be game changers.
If you are worried about competing with end game mages, be sure to have UMD, a scroll of source severance + your teleporting melee crit abiltoes could hand most casters their own arse (if they do not go first).
avr |
You'll be doing in the mid-thirties in damage on a non-crit hit assuming bane, and have 4 attacks while hasted with an attack bonus good enough to make even the last attack hit a lot. Triple digits in damage is going to happen. L15 wealth should be enough to cover a few of the other holes in a human fighter's capabilities.
But. L15 spellcasters in PF are actually scarier than in D&D. Someone who optimises their spellcaster may be using spell perfection to throw metamagiced spells twice every round, every combat without worrying much about spell slots, which may put you to shame by comparison. If you're concerned about being overshadowed - yes this may happen too.
bono_bob |
You'll be doing in the mid-thirties in damage on a non-crit hit assuming bane, and have 4 attacks while hasted with an attack bonus good enough to make even the last attack hit a lot. Triple digits in damage is going to happen. L15 wealth should be enough to cover a few of the other holes in a human fighter's capabilities.
But. L15 spellcasters in PF are actually scarier than in D&D. Someone who optimises their spellcaster may be using spell perfection to throw metamagiced spells twice every round, every combat without worrying much about spell slots, which may put you to shame by comparison. If you're concerned about being overshadowed - yes this may happen too.
Doesn't spell perfection specify not modifying cast time? Even if we do allow quicken. Perfect spell on a level 5 spell (csnt bring it higher than 9 equivalent) is lack lust imo compared to perfect spell higher spells and using quicken rods. And nothing compares to 3.5 wizards and the limitless splat books and spell options.
avr |
I suspect you're not familiar with the thousands (literally) of spells in PF1 bono_bob - there are quite close to limitless splat books and spell options in this game as well as D&D 3.5 now, at the end of the game line. Yes, a perfected spell can tactically outdo the 7th or 8th level spells that are a 15th level full caster's big guns while using a much lower level spell slot. This leaves the high level slots free for strategic spells.
Here's one example. Take the spell battering blast. Quicken, intensified and maximize are some relevant metamagics. Suppose our 15th level caster can manage a CL 20 on this spell. A maximized intensified battering blast fires 4 ranged touch attacks each doing 60 force damage, a quickened intensfied battering blast does 4 x 10d6. With spell perfection each uses a 4th level spell slot. Also there's a bull rush attempt and possibly a reflex save to avoid being knocked down involved, but that's mere frippery compared to the damage.
There's weirder spells to specialise in but this one's hard to beat for pure efficiency.
gnoams |
The caster martial disparity that people spout on and on about on forums and what is actually true in any game I've played is very different in my experience. What the spellcaster has is things to create large narrative impacts. Like being able to level a city with an earthquake. The martial however, will always outshine the caster in combats. (This is assuming everyone is operating at a high level of system mastery). Caster save DC lags behind enemy save bonuses, making their landing of spells less and less frequent at high levels. Meanwhile, the martials hit on 2s, dropping multiple opponents in one full attack action. In my experience, what GMs complain about at high level tables, is how the martials destroy everything with their insane damage outputs before they even get a turn. I frequently see spellcasters just stop bothering to do anything in combats at this point. They use their spells to teleport around, conjure up their demiplanes, and and do all their world editing stuff, leaving the fighting to the martials.
bono_bob |
The caster martial disparity that people spout on and on about on forums and what is actually true in any game I've played is very different in my experience. What the spellcaster has is things to create large narrative impacts. Like being able to level a city with an earthquake. The martial however, will always outshine the caster in combats. (This is assuming everyone is operating at a high level of system mastery). Caster save DC lags behind enemy save bonuses, making their landing of spells less and less frequent at high levels. Meanwhile, the martials hit on 2s, dropping multiple opponents in one full attack action. In my experience, what GMs complain about at high level tables, is how the martials destroy everything with their insane damage outputs before they even get a turn. I frequently see spellcasters just stop bothering to do anything in combats at this point. They use their spells to teleport around, conjure up their demiplanes, and and do all their world editing stuff, leaving the fighting to the martials.
What i like about pathfinder is all paths to power, properly optimized but still with lots of variations, can be OP. My blaster mages (many will criticise me for ever doing this) can still out damage 90% of everything else a player can come up, but i still thoroughly enjoy martials very very much.
bono_bob |
I suspect you're not familiar with the thousands (literally) of spells in PF1 bono_bob - there are quite close to limitless splat books and spell options in this game as well as D&D 3.5 now, at the end of the game line. Yes, a perfected spell can tactically outdo the 7th or 8th level spells that are a 15th level full caster's big guns while using a much lower level spell slot. This leaves the high level slots free for strategic spells.
Here's one example. Take the spell battering blast. Quicken, intensified and maximize are some relevant metamagics. Suppose our 15th level caster can manage a CL 20 on this spell. A maximized intensified battering blast fires 4 ranged touch attacks each doing 60 force damage, a quickened intensfied battering blast does 4 x 10d6. With spell perfection each uses a 4th level spell slot. Also there's a bull rush attempt and possibly a reflex save to avoid being knocked down involved, but that's mere frippery compared to the damage.
There's weirder spells to specialise in but this one's hard to beat for pure efficiency.
Im aware of your example..i just not sure if quicken works with perfect spell nor if id even use it for that. I also stick to paizo ONLY for pathfinder. There are still lots of new fun spell options, but not nearly as bad as 3.5 where conjuration was the "master race school". In fact some of rhe new spells is what nerfs wizards, like source severance via scroll and umd and boom that pathfinder mage has limited direct damage spelloptions since all the conjuration orbs dont exist.