Quote from Mark Seifter: "I am pondering changing to a state where Act Together is a variable action activity (one to three actions), where one of the two characters can use all the actions, and the other one does a single action. So for instance, Act Together for three actions, the summoner casts summon animal, and the eidolon Strikes once. This would also allow Summoner two-action-spell via Act Together while eidolon Strides, then eidolon Strikes, so it increases flexibility significantly. from this thread Mark Seifter idea for summoner in this thread.
If they added a Divine Font-like ability for summons, this change would be absolutely awesome. Then you would be able to fight for nearly every battle with 2 summoned creatures avoiding individual MAP due to using a minion where MAP was already worked into the lower capability of the creature. With flanking that would close the gap some as would the damage boost from boost eidolon applying to the summoned creature as well.
With the reduced action from boosting and the reduced ability to hit of Summoned creature, this would likely balance out damage overall while allowing you to become the best at utilizing summoned creatures.
I'm going to play some with this idea. I really like this idea as it would make the summoner conceptually stronger if it can use summoned creatures in conjunction with an eidolon to boost overall damage to levels roughly equal with other powerful martial classes and it would increase the value of certain eidolon feats that were otherwise overlooked.
You could build a feat scheme to take advantage of the additional summon like this:
2nd: Distracting Summon: like AoO for the eidiolon.
4th: Reinforce Eidolon
6th: Ostentatious Arrival
8th: Magical Evolution: Get shield and attack spell.
10th: Boost Summons: Be nice if this added an attack roll boost.
12th: Greater Magical Evolution (Take something like true strike and mirror image.
14th: Resilient Evolution
16th: Effortless Concentration: Can you get three summons going at once? Yes you can. Full on summon power with boost.
18th: Winged Evolution
20th: Eternal Boost
Now this looks fun. Now I have to see how cool the summoned creatures are. I'm going to build this and give it a try.
It would really only be fun if you had a lot of max level summons spells per day, so you could do it in every battle and maybe a couple of creatures in boss battles at the highest level where your summoned creatures would barely hit once a round due to super high ACs.
An angel summoner would have to use Animate Dead until lvl 5 when it can get Summon Celestial or Summon Fiend. That's a little hard to justify for a good angel summoner.
An angel summoner would have to use Animate Dead until lvl 5 when it can get Summon Celestial or Summon Fiend. That's a little hard to justify for a good angel summoner.
As of the playtest, an Angel Summoner can use Summon Animal in place of whatever first level Summon option they're going to get (as fairly heavily implied in the sidebar in the playtest).
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An angel summoner would have to use Animate Dead until lvl 5 when it can get Summon Celestial or Summon Fiend. That's a little hard to justify for a good angel summoner.As of the playtest, an Angel Summoner can use Summon Animal in place of whatever first level Summon option they're going to get (as fairly heavily implied in the sidebar in the playtest).
Absolutely, looks like they have a plan to expand summoning. And in the playtest, it isn't only Summon Animal, but Summon Animal with the Celestial template. Wonder if that is something that will be expanded on for the Summoner base form (adding templates based on the Eidolon).
An angel summoner would have to use Animate Dead until lvl 5 when it can get Summon Celestial or Summon Fiend. That's a little hard to justify for a good angel summoner.As of the playtest, an Angel Summoner can use Summon Animal in place of whatever first level Summon option they're going to get (as fairly heavily implied in the sidebar in the playtest).
Ah, yes. I do recall that. I will add in to the test. I'll run some scenarios with a druid with animal companion and a barbarian. See how the summoner using summons holds up.
Summon Animal offers some good options for a fighting companion for the Eidolon. I'm going to use some encounters pulled from APs to do some mock combats. I'm going to do this for a lvl 10 summoner, druid, and barbarian working in the same group with a cleric healer of some kind.
Average attack roll of a lvl 5th summoned creature is +15 against a standard AC of 27 to 30 or so for Challenge 9 to 12 creatures. Which is what you're likely to be facing in the most important battles where you would pull out the big guns meaning your high level spells.
Initial Party Set Up for Test:
Lvl 10 Party
Storm Druid with nimble bird animal companion
Giant Instinct Barbarian
Angel Summoner with Angel Eidolon using 5th level summon animal to summon celestial giant frilled lizard (Highest attack bonus)
Enemy Elite Alchemical Golem (Encounter taken from AP) AC 29 and 12 damage resistance to physical damage.
Considerations:
1. Summons are only even close to worthwhile in your highest level slot. Lvl 4 summons are not even a consideration for battle against a even a lvl 9 alchemical golem.
Having only 2 highest level slots is a severe limitation to a summon creature to assist eidolon strategy.
2. Not being able to strike through physical damage properties huge issue for summoned creatures.
After action report Elite Alchemical Golem Fight Challenge 10:
Why a golem?
1. Golems are extremely common creatures in PF APs.
2. They have high DR which is hard to get through. A big damage test for any martial.
3. Immune to magic, so the druid's animal companion and martial damage is all that can get through generally unless they wild shape or summon themselves.
Damage
Barbarian: 86
Summoner: 79
Druid: 6
Overkill: 1 point
Obervations:
1. The summon creature with eidolon is a fun play-style for those that like the army of summoned creatures theme. The Act Together 1 and 3 actions enables this style of play.
2. Only the highest level summons are workable even against a Challenge 10 creature with an AC of 29. If you use one level lower spell for summons, you will miss far more often lowering your damage greatly.
That means if they don't give the summoner a bunch of summons like Divine Font going up to level 10 spells, this strategy won't be viable. It's only viable if the summoner can use it many times per day based on Charisma which would be the main reason to max out the Charisma statistic.
3. Boost Summons is necessary to make this a viable strategy. It should come online sooner. I would say make it a lvl 5 or 6 feet as boost summons scales well with creature levels.
4. I'm actually warming to the shared hit point pool. It is much easier to manage heals. But the hit points for the summoner and eidolon are too low.
A good fix for this instead of a second hit point pool would be allowing the eidolon to add Con x its level to the total hit point pool. This would make raising the eidolon's Con and the summoner's Con both highly useful. And add sufficient and balanced hit points to match barbarian hit points combined and make up for the lack of a second hit point pool like an animal companion.
Even with a 20 Con that would make the combined hit point pool have an extra 100 points. So a a max level summoner with a 20 Con that was a hardcore dwarf would have the following hit point pool with a 20 con eidolon:
200 Base
20 race
20 Toughness
100 Con
100 Con Eidolon
440 hit points in combined bool.
Lvl 20 Barbarian hardcore dwarf
240 Base
100 Con
20 race
20 Toughness
380 hit points for solo character with hardcore damage resistance.
Druid and animal companion nimble bird half-elf with 20 Con
160 base
8 race
20 Toughness
100 Con
120 Bird Base
60 Con
448 hit points in between bird and druid.
So letting the summoner add the Con of the Eidolon hit point pool would give him a nice boost that would make the combined pool feel more powerful.
5. Get rid of the casting. You got no time to cast. Your rounds are all spent boosting eidolon and summons and attacking.
All you need is a Font that goes up to 10th level spell slots with summons. That's your class. Master of using summoned monsters to win. Not casting AoEs, not heals except maybe a focus spell heal. You summon creatures to crush people.
An explanation of your rounds to keep up with barbarian damage:
1. Round 1: Act Together. Eidolon 1 action to move into battle range. 3 actions to cast summon. Summon moves into battle and attacks or if in range attacks.
3. Round 2 and nearly every round after: Action Together: Boost Eidolon to give it 1st action attack, 2nd action sustain spell to let summon attack, and 3rd action let Eidolon attack.
So Act Together needs to work like it did originally while also having the option to let the summoner use 3 actions to summon and then the 1/1 action attack boost for the other action to sustain.
I found this is an entertaining fighting style that fits the class fantasy. It does require the above changes.
I might even add in a +1 status bonus to attack rolls for Boost Eidolon, to slightly increase hit chances for those lag levels.
I'll test in a few other fights. Those are the changes I'm thinking would work now. Just go all in on summons. Make a Divine Font Summons. As you level the Divine Font keeps adding better and better summons to your pool. Get rid of the casting. It's a waste of actions.
Make the class go to Legendary class ability for the eidolon abilities as you won't have casting ability. No real need to worry about spell lists or tracking spells. Just a Summon Font and have fun finding cool creatures to summon to work with the eidolon.
That is the direction I would go. That's a damn fun way to play. You will be the absolute untouchable best at using all those summon monster spells.
Summoner damage was the eidolon and a giant frilled lizard cast with a summoner monster 5th level spell applying the boost that let's you boost your summons as well.
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I have to give Mark some credit. If master of summoning monsters working with the eidolon to destroy your enemy was the thinking behind the summoner, that's a damn fun play-style. If he can make that happen, I'll play it.
Main concern is will this play-style be viable in boss battles considering you can't really do much else once your invested into sustaining a summon and attacking with your eidolon. And spell DCs of creatures aren't great against monsters due to how much lower level they are.
I'm going to test some boss battles next.
Keep in mind, I wouldn't bank on it being a font. It might just be a bonus spell known, or something that doesn't copy an existing mechanic.
Another after action battle report:
1. Challenge 12 Deculi against a lvl 10 Giant Barbarian, Storm Druid, and Angel Summoner.
Damage:
Barbarian: 125
Druid: 71 (While healing and using animal companion)
Summoner: 25 (Eidolon and CR 5 Air Elemental)
11 points overkill from final crit from bird Animal Companion killing him.
Notes:
1. I was able to summon the air elemental into flank position.
2. CR5 Air Elemental hit roll far too low an attack roll to threaten a Challenge 12 Deculi with a 33 AC even while flanking. 31 AC required a 17 or better to hit. Very low chance to hit.
3. Eidolon had some bad rounds, but only it's first attack had a very good chance to hit.
4. Barbarian was knocked unconscious and lost rage around round 4 as the Deculi focused on him as the biggest threat. His damage slowed down with no rage, but his hit roll was still the best of the group.
5. Druid used tempest surge. Deculi saved. It did 16 damage and no riders. Main source of damage was animal companion while healing.
6. Druid used two 5th level slots to heal for 128 points of damage.
Conclusions:
1. You need to pick the highest attack roll creature to have a chance to hit a higher Challenge+2 creature.
2. Boost Summons: Would be nice if Boost summons added a status bonus to attack rolls for summons when using Boost Eidolon. This would make more creatures you can summon viable in combat.
The eidolon does not need an attack roll boost, but the summoned creatures need an attack roll boost. Boost Summons would be ideal to add an attack roll boost in the same way a Druid gets a status bonus to attack to make Polymorph spells more viable in combat.
This sounds really cool, and for a Class like Summoner, pretty dang appropriate. It's a new combat style entirely that feels good too because of all the choices the Summoner can make in a given combat. They don't feel locked into certain action choices, which is the biggest problem with the new classes IMO.
Then how much they lean on which themes they like in the class comes down to their execution in combat and fostering their preferred choices in that combat from the Feats themselves.
Particularly if the "Divine Font" for Summons happens.
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Agree with Midnighttoker. It's a good option that gives flexibility and distinction from other summoning classes.