Can Operatives tumble during a trick attack now?

[BigNorseWolf]

The simplest move action is moving up to your speed

Some full actions (such as the operative’s trick attack) allow you to move as well, which act as moving up to your speed.

Tumbling is a move action, and you move at half speed.

So can you swap the move part of trick attack for movement to tumble?

New move action economy rules:

The simplest move action is moving up to your speed (see Speed on page 255 for more information). Many nonstandard modes of movement are also covered under this action, including burrowing (using your natural burrow speed, if you have one), climbing and swimming (using either the Athletics skill or your natural climb or swim speed, if you have one), or flying (using the Acrobatics skill if you have either access to flight or a natural fly speed). See Additional Movement Types on page 258 for more details. Some full actions (such as the operative’s trick attack) allow you to move as well, which act as moving up to your speed.

[HammerJack]

Thus is kind of a repost from another thread, but relevant to have here for context of the question:

I believe this is squares and rectangles. Move Your Speed is the square, and includes alternate movement modes, jumping during the movement, drawing weapons, etc. Tumble is the Square. It is a move action that involves moving, but is not Move Your Speed.

Full actions like Trick Attack, Stunt and Strike, Shot on the Run, Spring Attack, Challenge, Nimble Fusillade and the like can include the "Square" (Move Your Speed). I don't think there's any position arguing against that.

[Dracomicron]

Wait, so operatives can draw a weapon during a Trick Attack now?

*throws his hand of cards onto the table face down* I give up.

[HammerJack]

Dracomicron wrote:

Wait, so operatives can draw a weapon during a Trick Attack now?

*throws his hand of cards onto the table face down* I give up.

Yes, it's not just an operative thing (you could see a Shadow Mystic hide after Agile Casting), but that's an effect of this change that doesn't have any ambiguity.

[BigNorseWolf]

The movement portion of the operatives trick attack acts as if i was moving your speed.

If i was taking the moving my speed action, I could also take the tumble action to move.

I could NOT stand up, draw a weapon without a +1 BAB, reload a weapon, open a door etc. I can't see any argument that isnt hyper-technical for placing tumbling to move into the rectangle catagory of move actions rather than the square of "move your speed"

Quote:

this is kind of a repost from another thread, but relevant to have here for context of the question:

Didn't think it would be contraversial (much) and when you start an FAQ they prefer it be a clearly stated question at the start of the thread so... deja vu all over again.

[HammerJack]

When I said "this is kind of a repost" I meant to say that my response is kind of a repost of what I said in another thread, not to say that this thread should not exist.

Quote:

If i was taking the moving my speed action, I could also take the tumble action to move.

This is where I think the issue is. I would like to make sure I am not misunderstanding your reading, here. Are you saying:

1. Tumble is a thing that is done as part of Move Your Speed

2. When you would use Move Your Speed, you could have instead chosen to Tumble, so they should also be interchangeable as part if a full action.

3. Something else?

I believe that only number 1 would actually make this legal with the 3rd printing CRB.

[BigNorseWolf]

HammerJack wrote:

I believe that only number 1 would actually make this legal with the 3rd printing CRB.

I cannot see that argument at all. There is no mention or hint of a requirement of it being a part of the movement: Flying burrowing or swimming aren't done as part of the move action they're done as the entire move action (assuming you're not hitting the beach halfway through your move)

Likewise tumbling isn't some miscellaneous move action that just happens to move you around the map, the entire point of it is to move. And if you usually go half speed instead of full, that's usually the case with everything else explicitly mentioned.

[HammerJack]

Move Your Speed includes those other types of movement.

The fact that Tumble is used to move does not mean it's the same action as Move Your Speed.

Move Your Speed moves around freely and allows some sub-actions, like drawing.

Tumble is a move action. Tumble moves you around. Because Tumble isn't Move Your Speed, it doesn't allow those same sub-actions.

If "you use it to move" was the only qualifier, wouldn't Guarded Step also substitute into these full actions?

[BigNorseWolf]

HammerJack wrote:

Move Your Speed includes those other types of movement.

The fact that Tumble is used to move does not mean it's the same action as Move Your Speed.

Move Your Speed moves around freely and allows some sub-actions, like drawing.

Tumble is a move action.

So is moving your speed. So is Climbing. So is swimming.

Differentiating between a move action that moves you your speed and a move action to move your speed is parsing the rules finer than they go. I don't think the best way to view tumbling is a miscalenous move action that just happens to move you your speed: moving is the entire point of the action.

Quote:

If "you use it to move" was the only qualifier, wouldn't Guarded Step also substitute into these full actions?

It's not the only qualifier though. It's move your speed, not a set distance. Same problem with crawling.

[gnoams]

I read every post and... I'm not sure if you guys are arguing, or agreeing. This reads like crazy gibberish.

[HammerJack]

We are disagreeing, just not in an angry manner.

I read Tumble as a specific move action, not as one of the options you have when you use the action called Move Your Speed. If I am right, you cannot draw a weapon while tumbling, and you cannot tumble while trick attacking.

BNW's take on it is that tumbling is another version of moving, like climbing and flying are. If he is correct, then you could draw while tumbling, and you could tumble during an action like Trick Attack or Nimble Fusillade.

Does that make the difference any clearer?

[BigNorseWolf]

gnoams wrote:

I read every post and... I'm not sure if you guys are arguing, or agreeing. This reads like crazy gibberish.

Would the context of a change in the rules with the new printing help?

best changelog i know of

old:

The simplest move action is moving up to your speed (see Speed on page 255 for more information). Many nonstandard modes of movement are also covered under this action, including burrowing (using your natural burrow speed, if you have one), climbing and swimming (using either the Athletics skill or your natural climb or swim speed, if you have one), or flying (using the Acrobatics skill if you have either access to flight or a natural fly speed). See Additional Movement Types on page 258 for more details.

new:

The simplest move action is moving up to your speed (see Speed on page 255 for more information). Many nonstandard modes of movement are also covered under this action, including burrowing (using your natural burrow speed, if you have one), climbing and swimming (using either the Athletics skill or your natural climb or swim speed, if you have one), or flying (using the Acrobatics skill if you have either access to flight or a natural fly speed). See Additional Movement Types on page 258 for more details. Some full actions (such as the operative’s trick attack) allow you to move as well, which act as moving up to your speed.

[Alangriffith]

I'm having trouble seeing this as a rules change. The text is identical except for trick attack being listed as an example of a non-move action that lets you move (which it already was before, as described under trick attack) so what has actually changed?

Was there some FAQ/argument previously that trick attack didn't count as 'move your speed' despite saying the words 'move up to your speed' in its description?

Neither the text you quoted nor the two page references within it list tumble as a movement mode or an example. The actual description of Tumbling under Acrobatics says tumble is a move action and you move at half speed, not that it is part of movement nor even that you can switch between normal movement and tumbling mid action (as you can in D&D 3.5 and I assume Pathfinder 1, which I've hardly played but I'm told shared 95% of its rules with D&D 3.5).

Considering Starfinder already removed the free 5 foot step, restricting movement further by making tumble an either/or with 'move your speed' fits with that theme (I'm not sure I agree with that theme, but that's a different topic, although....

I'm still not sure why the initial design decision was made to have trick attack be 'a full round action that gives you a move' in the first place, and not just a swift action affecting your next attack same round - which would be standard action. You could then combine trick attack with a move action as you saw fit without all this weirdness. Yes then you could guarded step and tumble, but is that really a gamebreaker? You can trick attack at range anyway, you no longer need to be in a flanking melee position to do it when not hidden... where's the harm?)

[BigNorseWolf]

It's definitely everyone I've seen so far is reading it as letting you draw a weapon as you move, which is something operatives couldn't do before. So its a definite change from trick attack being a full round action that just happened to have a move baked into it to that movement being a move action to move your speed. What that changes besides letting operatives draw on the move....

Will make puppy dog eyes for FAQ clicks?

[Alangriffith]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

It's definitely everyone I've seen so far is reading it as letting you draw a weapon as you move, which is something operatives couldn't do before. So its a definite change from trick attack being a full round action that just happened to have a move baked into it to that movement being a move action to move your speed. What that changes besides letting operatives draw on the move....

I always assumed you could draw a weapon as part of trick attack, as trick attack said 'you can move up to your speed', and draw a weapon says 'combine drawing or sheathing...with moving up to your speed'. Is it the 'as a single move action' wording on the end that was the issue? (because that's still there in the errata'd wording)

Was there a FAQ or ruling that banned drawing as part of trick attack (maybe an SFS thing)? Or was it just a consensus that it was "something operatives couldn't do before"? It certainly does seem to be the consensus from other posters on this thread, I just don't get why (or why its a big deal, for that matter - the operative in my game has all weapons concealed so can't draw as a swift anyway, and I'd assume more combat groups would have weapons drawn most of the time).

Quote:

Will make puppy dog eyes for FAQ clicks?

I've never done this before, could you explain it? There's a FAQ button on every post, should I click it on your original post? My post? All the posts in the thread?

[Dracomicron]

Now playing my Operative at Skalcon, I would also like this clarified. My read is that it is a separate action, detailed in the Acrobatics section instead of the combat section, and is not viable as a move your speed action.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to get some of that sweet sweet trick attack tumbling, if possible. Just inject it into my veins. But I don't think it works.

[breithauptclan]

HammerJack wrote:

We are disagreeing, just not in an angry manner.

I read Tumble as a specific move action, not as one of the options you have when you use the action called Move Your Speed. If I am right, you cannot draw a weapon while tumbling, and you cannot tumble while trick attacking.

BNW's take on it is that tumbling is another version of moving, like climbing and flying are. If he is correct, then you could draw while tumbling, and you could tumble during an action like Trick Attack or Nimble Fusillade.

Does that make the difference any clearer?

That is a nice summary. Thanks.

So, for the camp of equivalent actions (allowing tumble as part of a trick attack) where is the line drawn? Could you also use balance as the movement part of trick attack? How about escape? And if any of these are allowed, what is the effective difference between this and simply making trick attack a standard action and removing the movement part from it? I guess you would still have the swift action left, for what that is worth.

So yeah, BigNorseWolf, is that effectively the direction that you are thinking that this should go? Have trick attack take the swift and standard action to do the trick attack and stitch on any move action you want onto it? Or should there still be some restrictions on what is available to do for that movement part?

[BigNorseWolf]

breithauptclan wrote:

Or should there still be some restrictions on what is available to do for that movement part?

Moving your speed

-stealth
-acrobatics
-move and draw an item
-balance while moving

Move actions that are not moving your speed

-draw an item from your backpack
-stand up from prone
-Feint with improved feint
-guarded step
- Give a drone or pet your move action
( i am really missing that table right now...)

[Naal]

Jump under Athletics is also a part of the move action.

Tumble under Acrobatics says "Tumbling is a move action, and you move at half speed," so I am not sure if that should be included the permissible options. Other than that I'm in the same boat as BNW with this ruling.

[BigNorseWolf]

Naal wrote:

Jump under Athletics is also a part of the move action.

Tumble under Acrobatics says "Tumbling is a move action, and you move at half speed," so I am not sure if that should be included the permissible options. Other than that I'm in the same boat as BNW with this ruling.

Well swimming climbing etc all move you at a fraction of your speed too. You can also tumble at a -10 to tumble at your speed, and operatives have the ability to maintain full speed when they tumble. So I don't think having the fraction/not having a fraction of movement is what matters

[Scottybobotti]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I cannot see that argument at all. There is no mention or hint of a requirement of it being a part of the movement: Flying burrowing or swimming aren't done as part of the move action they're done as the entire move action (assuming you're not hitting the beach halfway through your move)

If it makes any difference parsing the smallest differences in words. In the skills sections on pages 135-138 flying, swimming, jumping, and climbing are described as being part of a move action whereas tumbling is described as being a move action, not part of a move action.

[Joe Pasini]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

can you swap the move part of trick attack for movement to tumble?

No; tumble is its own move action and is not an option when using the move your speed action (or equivalent).

[BigNorseWolf]

Joe Pasini wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

can you swap the move part of trick attack for movement to tumble?

No; tumble is its own move action and is not an option when using the move your speed action (or equivalent).

Thanks!

Besides drawing a weapon on the move, what was the change supposed to allow?

[Ascalaphus]

Drawing a weapon on the move is pretty big though.

[BigNorseWolf]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Drawing a weapon on the move is pretty big though.

Don't most adventurers sleep with a gun in hand on top of a pillow on top of another gun?

[Kishmo]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Don't most adventurers sleep with a gun in hand on top of a pillow on top of another gun?

You need to simplify your sleep system. I suggest using a uniclamp to keep a pillow clamped to your small arms at all times. This lets you activate your pillow while still sleep-wielding your death ray :D

[Xenocrat]

One of the APs introduced an exoskeleton that can keep watch and walk you around while you sleep, surely that's what everyone is using.

[Ascalaphus]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

Drawing a weapon on the move is pretty big though.

Don't most adventurers sleep with a gun in hand on top of a pillow on top of another gun?

I tend to go with the glamered fusion so that I can be carrying a "datapad". I think you run into enough situations where you don't really want to be walking around weapons drawn all the time, so operatives would previously be burning the first round just getting weapons in hand. Going to trick attack in round 1 more consistently is a nice upgrade.