Stop trying to reinvent the wheel with Magus and Summoner

[Temperans]

Capn Cupcake wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Stands have few options, but Eidolons are supposed to have many options.

That is the problem with the current system.

Eidolons are not supposed to be stands, they are supposed to be their own creatures with their own abilities.

You're moving the goal post. The initial argument was "What if stands were all similar" and the rebuttal is "they ARE all similar and they all feel completely different from each other".

I have said before and I stand by this, I think Eidolons could use *some* customization at level 1. Not a ton, just enough to make it feel more like mine from a mechanical sense. I honestly get where Verzen is coming from. Two things that are completely identical mechanically feel the same, at least to me. Right now, for my personal tastes, there's not enough to differentiate one Angel from another, or one Beast from another.

All that said, I do not think another subsystem is the answer. It's clumsy, inelegant, and honestly sounds like a headache and a hassle. I still think the correct, simplest option is a small list of keywords and you can pick 1 for each weapon. That would be *massive* in terms of making them feel different.

Pathfinder weapons are almost all the same aside from a couple keywords tied to each. Just apple the same philosophy to the edilon's attacks. Giving one trip or disarm or backstabber isn't going to break anything at level 1, and you get an entire layer of customization for a pittance of design space.

I am also one of those that wants as much customization as possible. As long as its more than what they are giving now without having to spend feats I am happier.

As it stands now its just bad and I dont even want to think of it as the Summoner. It just makes me super sad thinking that this might be what PF2 gets instead of a proper summoner.

[Davido1000]

Cyouni wrote:

Davido1000 wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Imagine if you will an anime in which stand users has no unique stands. They are the exact same strength. Exact same looks depending on creature type. Exact same abilities and there were only 8 different types. It would be boring.

Oh, you mean the difference between Star Platinum, The World, and SBR The World? Or were you talking about how Star Platinum and Crazy Diamond are separated by having one ability difference, since both are close-range physical humanoid stands?

It's the difference between Jolyne's Stone Free and Mamezuku Rai's Doggy Style.

Yes because those 5 characters were fighting each other constantly throughout the entire series were they? they didnt fight other stands which had completely different abilities and ways of fighting?

What a completely disingenuous argument, The summoners eidolon customization is pretty bare bones compared to its previous iteration. What if i want my Pidgey or Sandshrew Eidolon? Nope sorry you have to wait till mid-endgame if you want that sort of thing.

You really want to try this when Stands are notable for having very few abilities? And are specifically classed into types - short-ranged ones are completely supreme at fighting compared to long-range ones.

To take just examples from the same section, Crazy Diamond, Star Platinum, and The Hand are functionally identical in all aspects except one. Similarly, if you removed "healing" from Crazy Diamond and added on "can go long distances" and "uses electricity", suddenly it's very hard to tell apart from Red Hot Chili Pepper. Similarly Killer Queen is again, the standard close-range base, with two evolutions for its abilities. And that's not even considering things like Love Deluxe, which is actually a witch with Living Hair, and not a summoner.

Yes and there are also stands that are electrical pylons, a mini sun and literal gas so im not sure what your trying to prove by cherry picking similar stands out of the countless unique ones in the rest of the manga. Looks to me your just skewing the facts to suit your preference. Nobody said that the eidolons should have some similarities but they also shouldn't all be exactly the same but one has a dragon motif while the other has an angel one.

[Themetricsystem]

Temperans wrote:

I am also one of those that wants as much customization as possible. As long as its more than what they are giving now without having to spend feats I am happier.

As it stands now its just bad and I dont even want to think of it as the Summoner. It just makes me super sad thinking that this might be what PF2 gets instead of a proper summoner.

Since I cannot favorite this post twice I'm quoting it to show that I agree. The current implementation is undesirable, to say the least and I hope that Paizo is taking the opportunity to try out really wild things instead of trying to use the PT as a "balancing and editorial" pass on what they have already made their mind up about.

[CrimsonKnight]

Verzen wrote:

Hell, I'd even go with, "Select one ability from a list of 3-5"

It would also allow for the future if they wanted to expand on the options a beast Eidolon got or some such.

But that would take actual work. *sarcasm* beasts are all the same after all it is not like paizo to make multiple bestiaries. *sarcasm*

right now I'm doubting that they even look at these boards.

[Rysky]

*reads thread title*

*reads thread*

Probbaly not.

[Cyouni]

Davido1000 wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Davido1000 wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Imagine if you will an anime in which stand users has no unique stands. They are the exact same strength. Exact same looks depending on creature type. Exact same abilities and there were only 8 different types. It would be boring.

Oh, you mean the difference between Star Platinum, The World, and SBR The World? Or were you talking about how Star Platinum and Crazy Diamond are separated by having one ability difference, since both are close-range physical humanoid stands?

It's the difference between Jolyne's Stone Free and Mamezuku Rai's Doggy Style.

Yes because those 5 characters were fighting each other constantly throughout the entire series were they? they didnt fight other stands which had completely different abilities and ways of fighting?

What a completely disingenuous argument, The summoners eidolon customization is pretty bare bones compared to its previous iteration. What if i want my Pidgey or Sandshrew Eidolon? Nope sorry you have to wait till mid-endgame if you want that sort of thing.

You really want to try this when Stands are notable for having very few abilities? And are specifically classed into types - short-ranged ones are completely supreme at fighting compared to long-range ones.

To take just examples from the same section, Crazy Diamond, Star Platinum, and The Hand are functionally identical in all aspects except one. Similarly, if you removed "healing" from Crazy Diamond and added on "can go long distances" and "uses electricity", suddenly it's very hard to tell apart from Red Hot Chili Pepper. Similarly Killer Queen is again, the standard close-range base, with two evolutions for its abilities. And that's not even considering things like Love Deluxe, which is actually a witch with Living Hair, and not a summoner.

Yes and there are also stands that are electrical pylons, a mini sun and literal gas so im not sure what your trying to prove by cherry picking...

I mean, you're the one picking out the hazard-type Stands when most of them are bound to a person.

And if you want to be the one championing how awesome the evolution point system is and how it can apply to everything, let's hear your setup for Super Fly in PF1. Or Sun. Or Wonder of U. Or Notorious BIG. Or Made in Heaven.

Maybe it's not meant to be representative of the most esoteric of Jojo Stands. But it sure handles the vast majority of them.

[Temperans]

Eidolons are not supposed to be stands. Its a connection that has been made because of how the playtest summoner is set up.

[Rysky]

In your opinion.

[Temperans]

Rysky it is a fact of the lore of the Eidolon. They are not supposed to be stands.

You want a stand get a Phantom. But Eidolons are not supposed to be stands.

[GameDesignerDM]

Eidolons are whatever Paizo decides they're supposed to be. They can change it from 1E all they want - it's their creation. Whatever they say it is, it is now and has always been.

[Tectorman]

GameDesignerDM wrote:

Eidolons are whatever Paizo decides they're supposed to be. They can change it from 1E all they want - it's their creation. Whatever they say it is, it is now and has always been.

Revisionist history for the win!

Don't get me wrong, though, I'm a fan of it myself sometimes. Monks have been "any alignment" since P1E started, and the class was always the Champion, not the Paladin, and was never stuck at LG-only. Just not always. Iomedae will always be the kidnapper who blared harmful music at her champions.

[Cyouni]

Temperans wrote:

Eidolons are not supposed to be stands. Its a connection that has been made because of how the playtest summoner is set up.

I mean, you could make the exact same connection in 1e - see Life Link. It's also a fantastical creature that takes a form shaped by the summoner, and they can share the senses of their eidolon.

[Lightning Raven]

I'm just amazed that Stands are being discussed as anything more than just a reference.

I wouldn't mind having an "Stand" Eidolon that is a very close approximation of JoJo. After all, we had the Magical Child Archetype in PF1e. My only restriction as a GM would be the player that chose this build, would need to come up with and use something similar to "ORA ORA ORA!" every time they were using their moves.

[Temperans]

Cyouni wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Eidolons are not supposed to be stands. Its a connection that has been made because of how the playtest summoner is set up.

I mean, you could make the exact same connection in 1e - see Life Link. It's also a fantastical creature that takes a form shaped by the summoner, and they can share the senses of their eidolon.

I have asked for life link back and peopke have said its too strong because "2-4 points of HP higher than Barbarian without animal companion".

Yes PF1 Eidolons were full of customization letting you build the monster you want. Something that PF2 has almost completely removed.

And Bond Senses was indeed something the Summoner could do. But it was a very minor ability useful only a few rounds per day. It was not an important part of the Summoner, just a neat thing they could do. Something that 100% could be a level class feat.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

GameDesignerDM wrote:

Eidolons are whatever Paizo decides they're supposed to be. They can change it from 1E all they want - it's their creation. Whatever they say it is, it is now and has always been.

There are retcons, and there are universal changes brought about by the universe itself. They are important differences.

Last I checked, PF2 isn't a retcon, but actually the Golarion universe after the result of Return of the Runelords and numerous other PF1 APs being resolved "canonically."

Which is to say that saying it always worked that way would be a retcon, and also patentedly false based on PF1 summoner (and its unchained variant) being published creations of the same universe.