Stop trying to reinvent the wheel with Magus and Summoner

[Temperans]

Themetricsystem wrote:

I just wonder what happened to all of the Eidolons from 1st ed that had an unusual number of arms, legs, horns, extra tentacles, and heads given that these were the not only available but also, mechanically superior to their more regular cousins.

My guess is that they went to the same place that: Oracle Mysteries and Curses; Bardic Masterpieces; and a multitude of feats, archetypes, hexes, spells, and Prestige classes and/or some of their abilities went.

[Verzen]

Temperans wrote:

Themetricsystem wrote:

I just wonder what happened to all of the Eidolons from 1st ed that had an unusual number of arms, legs, horns, extra tentacles, and heads given that these were the not only available but also, mechanically superior to their more regular cousins.

My guess is that they went to the same place that: Oracle Mysteries and Curses; Bardic Masterpieces; and a multitude of feats, archetypes, hexes, spells, and Prestige classes and/or some of their abilities went.

The Island of Lost archetypes...

[Cyouni]

Temperans wrote:

Summoner class paths should be: Eidolon, Summoned Monsters, Synthesist.

Not what type of eidolon you want.

And the fact you dont think familiar options are just a version of eidolon evolutions does not stop them from being a version of eidolon evolutions. No matter how hard to deny it.

There is a massive difference between familiar abilities and evolution points.

1. Differing costs of each ability.
2. Level limitations.
3. Heavy reduction in familiar choices, except for specific exceptions.
4. Importance to character power. Breaking/solving one of these in power level won't blow your game out of the water.

And you can only class path things if they aren't wildly disparate. An eidolon of the customizability/strength you want cannot exist in the same class base as a summoner that can only summon monsters. (Spoiler, the eidolon is the correct pick every time.) It'd be more fitting as a class archetype, because of how many main features you'd have to swap out.

[Temperans]

Familiar options are the equivalent of 1 point eidolon evolutions.

All Paizo has to do is have a similar list of abilities and then add different tiers with different costs.

2 1 point evolutions ~= 1 2 point evolution.
3 1 point evolutions ~= 1 3 point evolution.
4 1 point evolutions ~= 1 4 point evolution.
2 2 point evolutions ~= 1 4 point evolution.

It is not hard to set up power scales using a point cost and a level limit.

Level limits prevents the usage before a certain level even is the ability is cheap. While the cost differentiates their power level to prevent situations were an eidolon has multiple strong abilities.

******************

As for different class paths. Its all a matter of how you balance things.

An Eidolon path would have a single strong monster.

An Summoner path would have multiple weaker monsters. With either better action economy or stronger summons.

A Synthesist path would have the benefit of having better stats than normal characters and having a stronger body than any of the other two summoner paths.

[Verzen]

Cyouni wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Summoner class paths should be: Eidolon, Summoned Monsters, Synthesist.

Not what type of eidolon you want.

And the fact you dont think familiar options are just a version of eidolon evolutions does not stop them from being a version of eidolon evolutions. No matter how hard to deny it.

There is a massive difference between familiar abilities and evolution points.

1. Differing costs of each ability.
2. Level limitations.
3. Heavy reduction in familiar choices, except for specific exceptions.
4. Importance to character power. Breaking/solving one of these in power level won't blow your game out of the water.

And you can only class path things if they aren't wildly disparate. An eidolon of the customizability/strength you want cannot exist in the same class base as a summoner that can only summon monsters. (Spoiler, the eidolon is the correct pick every time.) It'd be more fitting as a class archetype, because of how many main features you'd have to swap out.

That's just a difference of tuning. Tune a similar process for Eidolons. We aren't saying give them all familiar abilities that familiars get. Just the system. There is nothing wrong with the SYSTEM. The system is not inherently tied to the tuning. If the tuning is broken, that does not mean the system is.

[Capn Cupcake]

Verzen wrote:

Capn Cupcake wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

ExOichoThrow wrote:

I for one, love the direction summoner has gone in, barring the lack of customization in the playtest.

I really think Paizo should listen to people who buy their products and support it, rather than people who throw tantrums over playtest not being what they want and then admitting they dont really play the game anyways and have just waited for it to "get better"

I'm really tired of 1e grogs expecting everything ever created to be catered to 1e players only.

I supported PF1 for all the years it was out. Bought tons of books and APs. I guess I'm the customer they want to lose. The one who played the summoner 6 or 7 times. Bought all the books like Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, APG, so many books I can't even remember all their names I still have sitting in boxes at my house. Kingmaker, Runelords, Carrion Crown, Giantslayer, Wrath of the Righteous, Mythic Adventures, and the like.

Sure. I'm just some grog that shouldn't be listened to by Paizo.

That's an incredibly entitled opinion. They're not making the game for YOU specifically. If the summoner looked like the PF1 summoner I wouldn't have given it a second look, but this new direction and idea? I find it interesting, it tickles my imagination, I want to see what can be done with it. I don't think it's perfect, not by a long shot. It needs tweaks and work, but the core concept is enticing and enchanting and I want to play with it. I threw out my idea to play a Magus (my own personal PF1 favorite class) to play this instead in an upcoming campaign. But I certainly don't feel entitled to the Magus despite disagreeing with the current design choices. I realize its a bigger world than me, there are more people than me, and I'm willing to accept that things move on. I'm still gonna play the system because honestly it's amazing even if there are things I disagree with. But throwing the baby out with the bathwater is not a great view. If you want

...

Sorry, I didn't elaborate properly. I think that would also be fun, and one of the things I would change about the current iteration would be better Eidolon customization. But the shared action pool and shared action economy are VERY interesting to me. Enough that I really want to toy around with it. I like your ideas quite a bit and wouldn't be disappointed at all if they implemented it at all. :)

Edit: Apparently your quote got eaten in the quote chain. This was directed at Verzen. I'm really, really bad at forums.

I was responding to when you asked me about my opinion on your evolution points. I want there to be more customization, I like the shared HP pool/action economy. Okay now I'm done lol <3

[Cyouni]

Verzen wrote:

That's just a difference of tuning. Tune a similar process for Eidolons. We aren't saying give them all familiar abilities that familiars get. Just the system. There is nothing wrong with the SYSTEM. The system is not inherently tied to the tuning. If the tuning is broken, that does not mean the system is.

At some point in this system, you're basically going to have to go "this is not a class for new players or anyone who doesn't want to micromanage evolution points". It's also going to cause wild disparities between people who know what to pick and people who don't.

And I'm pretty sure that's against the design ethos of PF2.

[Temperans]

I think the share action and HP are interesting but they dont work for the Summoner.

It should be given to another class that is built around that. The summoner is built around having two creatures. And the current system does not feel like that.

You know were sharing actions/HP would make sense? A Stand/Persona class. Now in that context yeah, shared action and HP would make a lot of sense.

[Capn Cupcake]

Temperans wrote:

I think the share action and HP are interesting but they dont work for the Summoner.

It should be given to another class that is built around that. The summoner is built around having two creatures. And the current system does not feel like that.

You know were sharing actions/HP would make sense? A Stand/Persona class. Now in that context yeah, shared action and HP would make a lot of sense.

Dude it's taken ALL of my effort not to just say screw it and play a stand user lol. I'm playing a dragon summoner but my heart says otherwise.

[Temperans]

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

That's just a difference of tuning. Tune a similar process for Eidolons. We aren't saying give them all familiar abilities that familiars get. Just the system. There is nothing wrong with the SYSTEM. The system is not inherently tied to the tuning. If the tuning is broken, that does not mean the system is.

At some point in this system, you're basically going to have to go "this is not a class for new players or anyone who doesn't want to micromanage evolution points". It's also going to cause wild disparities between people who know what to pick and people who don't.

And I'm pretty sure that's against the design ethos of PF2.

Having the options to build how you want is the point of the eidolon. I dont see how having options makes it a class not for beginners if Paizo balances things. Which they most certainly can.

Are you saying that Caster (which we have many of) with their multitude of spells are for beginners. But having a handful of options is impossible? How does that make sense?

[Verzen]

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

That's just a difference of tuning. Tune a similar process for Eidolons. We aren't saying give them all familiar abilities that familiars get. Just the system. There is nothing wrong with the SYSTEM. The system is not inherently tied to the tuning. If the tuning is broken, that does not mean the system is.

At some point in this system, you're basically going to have to go "this is not a class for new players or anyone who doesn't want to micromanage evolution points". It's also going to cause wild disparities between people who know what to pick and people who don't.

And I'm pretty sure that's against the design ethos of PF2.

Uh this same argument can be said of the feat system in PF2.

[Cyouni]

Temperans wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

That's just a difference of tuning. Tune a similar process for Eidolons. We aren't saying give them all familiar abilities that familiars get. Just the system. There is nothing wrong with the SYSTEM. The system is not inherently tied to the tuning. If the tuning is broken, that does not mean the system is.

At some point in this system, you're basically going to have to go "this is not a class for new players or anyone who doesn't want to micromanage evolution points". It's also going to cause wild disparities between people who know what to pick and people who don't.

And I'm pretty sure that's against the design ethos of PF2.

Having the options to build how you want is the point of the eidolon. I dont see how having options makes it a class not for beginners if Paizo balances things. Which they most certainly can.

Are you saying that Caster (which we have many of) with their multitude of spells are for beginners. But having a handful of options is impossible? How does that make sense?

Because you're bolting on an entirely different system that doesn't interface with anything else, works differently from class feats despite being the same, runs on its own tables - that again, don't work with anything else - and is just a massive increase in complexity for only the summoner. And that's before we get into summoner spells, focus spells, etc.

What would possibly work better (and actually within the system) is something more along the lines of the fighter's Combat Flexibility, but for evolutions.

[Verzen]

Cyouni wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

That's just a difference of tuning. Tune a similar process for Eidolons. We aren't saying give them all familiar abilities that familiars get. Just the system. There is nothing wrong with the SYSTEM. The system is not inherently tied to the tuning. If the tuning is broken, that does not mean the system is.

At some point in this system, you're basically going to have to go "this is not a class for new players or anyone who doesn't want to micromanage evolution points". It's also going to cause wild disparities between people who know what to pick and people who don't.

And I'm pretty sure that's against the design ethos of PF2.

Having the options to build how you want is the point of the eidolon. I dont see how having options makes it a class not for beginners if Paizo balances things. Which they most certainly can.

Are you saying that Caster (which we have many of) with their multitude of spells are for beginners. But having a handful of options is impossible? How does that make sense?

Because you're bolting on an entirely different system that doesn't interface with anything else, works differently from class feats despite being the same, runs on its own tables - that again, don't work with anything else - and is just a massive increase in complexity for only the summoner. And that's before we get into summoner spells, focus spells, etc.

What would possibly work better (and actually within the system) is something more along the lines of the fighter's Combat Flexibility, but for evolutions.

*pick 2 from this list* isn't complex at all lol

[Verzen]

I want to be able to line two eidolons up and not have them be basically carbon copies of one another which is what the current playtest is.

[Cyouni]

Verzen wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

That's just a difference of tuning. Tune a similar process for Eidolons. We aren't saying give them all familiar abilities that familiars get. Just the system. There is nothing wrong with the SYSTEM. The system is not inherently tied to the tuning. If the tuning is broken, that does not mean the system is.

At some point in this system, you're basically going to have to go "this is not a class for new players or anyone who doesn't want to micromanage evolution points". It's also going to cause wild disparities between people who know what to pick and people who don't.

And I'm pretty sure that's against the design ethos of PF2.

Uh this same argument can be said of the feat system in PF2.

Do tell me how picking 1-2 feats at each level is similar to "spend X evolution points, but you can only tell what X is if you consult the charts, and then go through all our non-feats that cost different amounts and have their own prerequisites. Oh, and you still have to pick your feats."

You're basically bolting on a summoner-only feat system onto the feat system.

[Verzen]

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

That's just a difference of tuning. Tune a similar process for Eidolons. We aren't saying give them all familiar abilities that familiars get. Just the system. There is nothing wrong with the SYSTEM. The system is not inherently tied to the tuning. If the tuning is broken, that does not mean the system is.

At some point in this system, you're basically going to have to go "this is not a class for new players or anyone who doesn't want to micromanage evolution points". It's also going to cause wild disparities between people who know what to pick and people who don't.

And I'm pretty sure that's against the design ethos of PF2.

Uh this same argument can be said of the feat system in PF2.

Do tell me how picking 1-2 feats at each level is similar to "spend X evolution points, but you can only tell what X is if you consult the charts, and then go through all our non-feats that cost different amounts and have their own prerequisites. Oh, and you still have to pick your feats."

You're basically bolting on a summoner-only feat system onto the feat system.

Pick 2 evolutions at each level that are separate from feats. Same concept.

[Temperans]

Because while you complain about the evolution points not being attached to anything.

Having 20 or more class feats is never going to happen.

It is physically impossible for any class to ever get more than 13 feats. Which is how much an Ancient Elf Fighter is getting. Summoner will never have enough evolutions if each is a feat.

You arent bolting the eidolon evolutions to the feat system. They should not be part of the same system in the first place. Even if there might be some feats that connect the 2.

[Verzen]

Or even maybe 2 at 1, 1 at 2, 2 at 3, 1 at 4 etc.

[Verzen]

Temperans wrote:

Because while you complain about the evolution points not being attached to anything.

Having 20 or more class feats is never going to happen.

It is physically impossible for any class to ever get more than 13 feats. Which is how much an Ancient Elf Fighter is getting.

Summoner will never have enough evolutions if each is a feat.

Plus between levels 1-5, it would only be max 3 evolutions.

[Cyouni]

What I want to know is, why is summoner so special that it gets to have its own feat system? Why is it so much more special than animal companions, who have to take 3 feats to keep up in their combat - even if you start as a Animal Order druid - and don't get to customize themselves in 15 different ways for free? Why is it so much more special than a witch's familiar, who gets at most six abilities that isn't going to change the tide of combat?

What does it give up? You've asked for customization matching a second character. How is this not just "I get the fighting power of a barbarian/fighter, but also have my other character as well who also gets feats and the same level of base power, and I can customize both at the same rate"?

[Nitro~Nina]

I think that a simplified version of the evolution pool, perhaps a little like Familiars-but-combat, is not necessarily a bad idea. Customisation is good, and Paizo is basically The Team to provide decent customisation alongside a decent balance of power. Of course, that's a difficult thing, and it's a thing that a certain other company is terrified of, but it's also what Paizo spent an entire edition trial-and-erroring their way through. All these feats! Glorious!

Speaking of error, however, I never liked the "big ball of limbs" thing in 1e. It seemed cheap and tiring and I could never get the story square in my head, so it just completely turned me off the class. I love customisation, and I love character design, and I love the whole idea of the Eidolon-Summoner... so I felt it really unfortunate that the PF1 summoner had so many "this is the good one; the flavourful one's over there" options. The PF2 design principles solve some of that straight-up; you can flavour that strike as fifty simultaneous ghost punches but it's still an action and you get exactly three of those. Maybe a bonus shenanigan if you eat your greens. This is good.

What is less good is that the customisation is a little lacking after that point. At some point, I'd like those fifty simultaneous ghost punches to do something slightly different than another Eidolon's big ol' cudgel. I'd like a lateral shift there; maybe the fifty simultaneous ghost punches are Brawling with Sweep while the cudgel is a Club with Forceful, or whatever, but it shouldn't break the class to add a little more customisation than just "describe the thing". I do like "describe the thing", mind you; it's one of my favourite aspects of the new class... but it could use a little more meat.

Being able to tweak the Manifest Eidolon activity with some Summon spells a la Druid Wildshape specific feats could be cool? Depending on what sort of thing you can Summon, you can give your Eidolon different abilities? Maybe difficult to do, however. I'm also not sure I even like the class being a spellcaster. I know people want the Master Summoner, but I'm not sure it's feasible on top of a satisfying Eidolon Summoner, which is sort of The Class to me. A path removing/adding spell-casting entirely seems extreme, but I guess it's not infeasible.

In any case, all of these ideas, along with the classes themselves, are definitely reinventing the wheel. I like that, because this is a new car, with different needs and design specifications. I wouldn't trust Model T spokes on a modern offroader, and I'd expect that modern offroader's wheels to be tested properly before being sold. That's what's happening now, with community assistance. Paizo is letting us take a test drive on the understanding that, if the wheels break, they won't be going on the finished car. While it's important to bring up any criticisms we have about the new wheels for that very reason, pooh-poohing the new ideas as needless "reinvention" isn't all that helpful.

..."Reinvention is good" says the person in the Brigh mask. Predictability at its finest.

[WatersLethe]

I will say part of the reason I avoided Summoners in 1e was because I didn't really understand the Eidolon. It felt like a random amalgamation of features, not like "a dragon" or "an angel".

So I would say there is a non-zero benefit in having more pre-packaged summons that are easy to put a face to.

This is the first time I'm thinking of what kind of Summoner I might play.

[graystone]

Cyouni wrote:

What does it give up?

Individual HP pools, independent actions with their own MAP's, MANY, MANY, MANY spells, ect. Proficiencies even out [drop casting one for gaining in weapons].

They gain shared skills and better pet damage.

I don't think it's a winning argument to say a summoner balances out to a druid.

[Capn Cupcake]

WatersLethe wrote:

I will say part of the reason I avoided Summoners in 1e was because I didn't really understand the Eidolon. It felt like a random amalgamation of features, not like "a dragon" or "an angel".

So I would say there is a non-zero benefit in having more pre-packaged summons that are easy to put a face to.

This is the first time I'm thinking of what kind of Summoner I might play.

I think there's a middle ground between the two. I think even something as simple as "Choose from the following weapon keywords, you can apply two of them divided as you see fit between your Eidolon's two attacks" would be enough of a step to making them seem different. Suddenly I've got a disarming, piercing jaw attack and you've got a bludgeoning, tripping tail attack. Now they feel extremely different, it's tangible.

[Verzen]

Cyouni wrote:

What I want to know is, why is summoner so special that it gets to have its own feat system? Why is it so much more special than animal companions, who have to take 3 feats to keep up in their combat - even if you start as a Animal Order druid - and don't get to customize themselves in 15 different ways for free? Why is it so much more special than a witch's familiar, who gets at most six abilities that isn't going to change the tide of combat?

What does it give up? You've asked for customization matching a second character. How is this not just "I get the fighting power of a barbarian/fighter, but also have my other character as well who also gets feats and the same level of base power, and I can customize both at the same rate"?

Animal companions are a small portion of the class. Like a side concept. Eidolons are the main focus of the Summoner and is what made it unique. Eidolons are not just a reskinned animal companion.

In terms of power, the animal companion is 1/4th the class. Eidolons are 3/4th the class. It's even in their own name. SUMMONER.

A summoner without a customizable Eidolon is like a barbarian without rage.

Animal order druids get an animal companion AND 10 levels of FULL spellcasting. No reduction in the amount of spells.

Witches get a full 10 spell levels without a reduction in the amount of spells. Reducing the Eidolon to a normal animal companion would be like a witch without hexes. The Eidolon has ALWAYS been the main focus of the summoner. It's ALWAYS been what made that class special.

What does it give up? Really? We already gave up 90% of the amount of spells we have.

Just because one class gets feats and another class gets feats does not mean that the feats of class B are equal in power to the feats of class A. It's not a zero sum game. If a fighters feats are stronger than a summoners feats and summoners feats focus more on support abilities or interesting interactions with the Eidolon while the Eidolon feats deal with customization (it doesn't necessarily have to be about raw power. Just interesting customization like 1/2 level resistance or reach with your attacks) then it could be very balanced as long as it is tuned right.

But like I and many others have said. The customization of the Eidolon as a monster and feeling we are controlling a unique monster was why the class was so popular and a lot of people enjoyed it. In fact what they could also do is make a level 1 feat that says you can take it multiple times and it gives you an additional evolution each time you take it. That way if I want a super powered Eidolon in comparison to my weak, worthless summoner, I can have it. Those who want interesting partnerships can take other feats that can provide interesting interactions between summoner and Eidolon.

But the Eidolon is special. It's suppose to be special. That's what made the class itself special.

Each class has it's uniqueness.

Barbarians? Rage.

Witch? Hexes and best familiar in the game.

Druids? Animal companion, primal spell casting up to 10 etc.

Sorcerers? Bloodlines.

Fighters? Best at martial weapons in the game.

Rogues? Skills and sneak attack.

Investigators? Skills and figuring out what to do.

Oracles? Curses.

With summoners, the Eidolon IS the class. It's honestly what makes the class so near and dear to our hearts.

[Nitro~Nina]

Cyouni wrote:

What I want to know is, why is summoner so special that it gets to have its own feat system? Why is it so much more special than animal companions, who have to take 3 feats to keep up in their combat - even if you start as a Animal Order druid - and don't get to customize themselves in 15 different ways for free? Why is it so much more special than a witch's familiar, who gets at most six abilities that isn't going to change the tide of combat?

What does it give up? You've asked for customization matching a second character. How is this not just "I get the fighting power of a barbarian/fighter, but also have my other character as well who also gets feats and the same level of base power, and I can customize both at the same rate"?

This could be a good argument for replacing spells on any variant of the Summoner that gets lotsa evolutions. Those Evolutions, combined with the Summoner's buffing abilities, should be what puts the Eidolon on-par with other martial. The entire thing should be at that power level altogether, whether it's Eidolon-heavy, Summoner-heavy or somewhere in-between.

I don't think anyone's genuinely asking for something that's worth more than a single class altogether. I don't like speaking for others (so do correct me if I'm wrong) but Verzen has pretty explicitly said that, if they have a Fighter-ish Eidolon, the Summoner should pale in comparison. I believe the word "slimy" was used, and not in the aberration sort of way.

In my opinion, and I don't think I'm alone, having a fully Fighter-level monsterbeastie should require all of those evolutions AND class feats going into said monsterbeastie. But customisation is the key, so maybe another duo would be more utility-focused, with a lower-powered Eidolon and the Summoner playing a more active role through focus spells and the like. I don't think anyone is suggesting that they get customisation matching a second character On Top Of an entire class. There'd be tradeoff and tuning for sure.

[Verzen]

Nitro~Nina wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

What I want to know is, why is summoner so special that it gets to have its own feat system? Why is it so much more special than animal companions, who have to take 3 feats to keep up in their combat - even if you start as a Animal Order druid - and don't get to customize themselves in 15 different ways for free? Why is it so much more special than a witch's familiar, who gets at most six abilities that isn't going to change the tide of combat?

What does it give up? You've asked for customization matching a second character. How is this not just "I get the fighting power of a barbarian/fighter, but also have my other character as well who also gets feats and the same level of base power, and I can customize both at the same rate"?

This could be a good argument for replacing spells on any variant of the Summoner that gets lotsa evolutions. Those Evolutions, combined with the Summoner's buffing abilities, should be what puts the Eidolon on-par with other martial. The entire thing should be at that power level altogether, whether it's Eidolon-heavy, Summoner-heavy or somewhere in-between.

I don't think anyone's genuinely asking for something that's worth more than a single class altogether. I don't like speaking for others (so do correct me if I'm wrong) but Verzen has pretty explicitly said that, if they have a Fighter-ish Eidolon, the Summoner should pale in comparison. I believe the word "slimy" was used, and not in the aberration sort of way.

In my opinion, and I don't think I'm alone, having a fully Fighter-level monsterbeastie should require all of those evolutions AND class feats going into said monsterbeastie. But customisation is the key, so maybe another duo would be more utility-focused, with a lower-powered Eidolon and the Summoner playing a more active role through focus spells and the like. I don't think anyone is suggesting that they get customisation matching a second character On Top Of an entire class. There'd be tradeoff and tuning for sure.

Think Master Blaster. =)

[graystone]

Verzen wrote:

Think Master Blaster. =)

It's very, very sad my gnome can't Master Blaster unless I make my Eidolon Large... :P

[Cyouni]

You don't get to customize any of the other base class features - Rage, hexes, bloodlines, sneak attack, devise a strategem, curse, arcane school, etc - 10 times for free.

All the other class feature increasers (Dirge of Doom, litanies, special rogue debilitations, more hexes, and even bloodline and arcane school focuses) work off class feats. The class feats are literally designed as the way you differentiate your class features, and there's already customization built in to the eidolon designs.

Why do summoners need to have their own separate character building subsystem that functions according to its own special rules? Why isn't that then a PF1 design in a system that doesn't interact with it at all?

[Cyouni]

Nitro~Nina wrote:

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they get customisation matching a second character On Top Of an entire class. There'd be tradeoff and tuning for sure.

Well, that's the thing.

They want it to be a separate customization running entirely on its own. They want it to be fully customizable, such that even at level 1 you can stand any two eidolons next to each other and have them be different.
At the same time, they'd still get class feats, skill feats, ancestry feats, and all the other things that standard characters get.

That's a second character, no matter how you look at it.

Why is the tradeoff not "you do this with class feats, like literally every other character in the game"?

(Side note: I could definitely see a class archetype that interfaces more with a certain capability, like getting rid of spell slots to focus on the eidolon - extra class feats, eidolon action types, and maybe skill feats would be an interesting way of doing it - but I don't think that should be the standard.)

[PossibleCabbage]

It's kind of weird that a familiar can go from flying one day to being amphibious another day even though it's a cat and cats do neither of those things, but your Eidolon is weirdly static unless you invest feats into this.

It feels like a creature which is essentially a collection of forces from an outer plane given form due to it's link with me wouldn't be subject to regularly changing from one day to another.

[Verzen]

Cyouni wrote:

You don't get to customize any of the other base class features - Rage, hexes, bloodlines, sneak attack, devise a strategem, curse, arcane school, etc - 10 times for free.

All the other class feature increasers (Dirge of Doom, litanies, special rogue debilitations, more hexes, and even bloodline and arcane school focuses) work off class feats. The class feats are literally designed as the way you differentiate your class features, and there's already customization built in to the eidolon designs.

Why do summoners need to have their own separate character building subsystem that functions according to its own special rules? Why isn't that then a PF1 design in a system that doesn't interact with it at all?

You get to customize the actual PC though who has rage, hexes etc. In a lot of ways, the Eidolon IS our character. That's what makes it special and unique.

[Verzen]

Quote:

there's already customization built in to the eidolon designs.

No. There is not! All the Eidolons feel like carbon copies. The only thing that differs is the ability they get and it feels very unfulfilling.

[Cyouni]

Verzen wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

You don't get to customize any of the other base class features - Rage, hexes, bloodlines, sneak attack, devise a strategem, curse, arcane school, etc - 10 times for free.

All the other class feature increasers (Dirge of Doom, litanies, special rogue debilitations, more hexes, and even bloodline and arcane school focuses) work off class feats. The class feats are literally designed as the way you differentiate your class features, and there's already customization built in to the eidolon designs.

Why do summoners need to have their own separate character building subsystem that functions according to its own special rules? Why isn't that then a PF1 design in a system that doesn't interact with it at all?

You get to customize the actual PC though who has rage, hexes etc. In a lot of ways, the Eidolon IS our character. That's what makes it special and unique.

Okay, and again, that's what class feats are for. Why should Summoner effectively get twice as many of them?

[PossibleCabbage]

One of the problem is that most of the feats do very little for the Summoner itself. Most of the feats in the playtest are feats that are about enhancing the Eidolon, or doing something better with your Eidolon.

[Verzen]

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

You don't get to customize any of the other base class features - Rage, hexes, bloodlines, sneak attack, devise a strategem, curse, arcane school, etc - 10 times for free.

All the other class feature increasers (Dirge of Doom, litanies, special rogue debilitations, more hexes, and even bloodline and arcane school focuses) work off class feats. The class feats are literally designed as the way you differentiate your class features, and there's already customization built in to the eidolon designs.

Why do summoners need to have their own separate character building subsystem that functions according to its own special rules? Why isn't that then a PF1 design in a system that doesn't interact with it at all?

You get to customize the actual PC though who has rage, hexes etc. In a lot of ways, the Eidolon IS our character. That's what makes it special and unique.

Okay, and again, that's what class feats are for. Why should Summoner effectively get twice as many of them?

At 1st level, what feats directly effect the Eidolon?

At 1st level, how many feats directly effect the PC?

PC = Background (skill feat), Ancestry feat (and heritage), possible class feat if they are a martial

Eidolon = Pick this pregen package that has zero customization on what it looks like or what it is... when Summoners are a weird kind of martial mix with some spellcasting, but they aren't true spellcasters.

So a PC has 3 feats. Eidolon has 0 feats.

Summoner gets its first feat at level 2.. and those feats are a bit underwhelming. If we choose an evolution, we have 1 evolution. So 1 thing to change our Eidolon. At level 2, we have far more customization than our Eidolon does and it was the exact opposite of that in PF1. I'd like that feeling back for summoner.

[Cyouni]

Verzen wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

You get to customize the actual PC though who has rage, hexes etc. In a lot of ways, the Eidolon IS our character. That's what makes it special and unique.

Okay, and again, that's what class feats are for. Why should Summoner effectively get twice as many of them?

At 1st level, what feats directly effect the Eidolon?

At 1st level, how many feats directly effect the PC?

PC = Background (skill feat), Ancestry feat (and heritage), possible class feat if they are a martial

Eidolon = Pick this pregen package that has zero customization on what it looks like or what it is... when Summoners are a weird kind of martial mix with some spellcasting, but they aren't true spellcasters.

So a PC has 3 feats. Eidolon has 0 feats.

Summoner gets its first feat at level 2.. and those feats are a bit underwhelming. If we choose an evolution, we have 1 evolution. So 1 thing to change our Eidolon. At level 2, we have far more customization than our Eidolon does and it was the exact opposite of that in PF1. I'd like that feeling back for summoner.

Let's say a player spends all their class feats on archetypes unrelated to their class. For simplicity, we'll exclude whatever abilities they get off their archetyping.

A barbarian with Rage who does this has no extra Rage abilities. In relation to their class, they are simply a barbarian with Dragon Rage, or whichever they chose. They can't breathe like a dragon. They can't fly like a dragon. They can't transform into a dragon. They just do a bit of extra elemental damage and are a little more resistant against similar things.

A hypothetical evolution point summoner who does that is still super-invested into being a summoner, having traded away all their class customization and yet retaining all their eidolon customization. Their eidolon will still be fire resistant, breath fire, will fly, have extra claws/heads/whatever, and overall be a massive versatility increase. Thanks to the fact that evolution points are bolted on to the system, the system doesn't handle it at all.

As noted, I definitely think there can be room for doing things like how the fighter gets Combat Versatility, or how the swashbuckler gets Stylish Tricks. But evolution points are just going to break the system due to their inherent power and how they just don't interface with anything else.

[Verzen]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

One of the problem is that most of the feats do very little for the Summoner itself. Most of the feats in the playtest are feats that are about enhancing the Eidolon, or doing something better with your Eidolon.

Most of those feats also do NOTHING to provide actual customization for the Eidolon at all and a lot of those feats are way too late. Like, for example, a fighter at level 1 can get any one of these down below for their weapon choice. But we must spend a precious feat for it. Fighters do not.

Quote:

UNARMED EVOLUTION

EVOLUTION SUMMONER
Your eidolon’s unarmed attack evolves and gains a special
trait. Choose one of your eidolon’s starting melee unarmed
attacks. The attack gains one of the following traits, which
you choose when you gain this feat: disarm, nonlethal, shove,
trip, or versatile. If you choose versatile, also choose whether
it’s B, P, or S.

Or how about this?

Quote:

RANGED EVOLUTION
EVOLUTION SUMMONER
Your eidolon has developed a ranged attack. Your eidolon
gains a ranged unarmed attack with a range increment of
30 feet that deals 1d6 damage and has the magical trait.
When you select this feat, choose a damage type from
acid, bludgeoning, cold, electricity, fire, negative, piercing,
positive, or slashing. If your eidolon is a celestial, fiend,
or monitor with an alignment other than true neutral, you
can instead choose a damage type in their alignment (for
example, you could choose good or lawful if your lawful good
angel eidolon gained this attack).

Fighters, rangers etc can do ranged at 1. Granted, it has some extra interesting flare to it, like energy or negative or good/law etc and I think that is SUPER cool and all. But.. level 8?

The first evolution you can get at level 2 btw is

Quote:

SENSORY EVOLUTION

EVOLUTION SUMMONER
Your eidolon evolves more acute senses. Your eidolon either
gains low-light vision and darkvision, or gains scent as an
imprecise sense with a range of 30 feet.
Special You can select this feat twice, choosing the other
option the second time.

And

Quote:

MAGICAL EVOLUTION

EVOLUTION SUMMONER
Your eidolon evolves to cast their own spells. Your eidolon
gains the Cast a Spell activity and learns two cantrips of their
©2020 Paizo Inc. 21
Secrets of Magic
tradition, which they cast as innate spells. Your eidolon uses
your spell DC and spell attack modifier for these spells.

this is super boring. So in reality, I have to wait till level 4 till anything interesting.

I may not want my Eidolon casting spells. Its mental stats are very low.

At 4th level they get

Quote:

ALACRITOUS EVOLUTION

EVOLUTION SUMMONER
Your eidolon evolves to move more quickly on land. Your
eidolon gains a +10-foot status bonus to their Speed.
AMPHIBIOUS EVOLUTION
EVOLUTION SUMMONER
Your eidolon adapts to life both on land and underwater. Your
eidolon gains the amphibious trait, allowing them to breathe in
water and in air and to avoid the normal –2 penalty for making
bludgeoning and slashing unarmed Strikes underwater. They
gain a swim Speed equal to their land Speed or 25 feet,
whichever is less. Alternatively, if your eidolon is normally
aquatic, they gain a land Speed equal to their swim Speed or
25 feet, whichever is less.

These evolutions are very boring and I feel like they could be given to the Eidolon as a flavor option rather than wasting a precious feat on them. They do nothing for combat except maybe the 10 foot status, but monk gets it for free without having to spend a precious feat for their movement.

So we have nothing really worth a feat in terms of the evolutions until 6.

Quote:

CLIMBING EVOLUTION

EVOLUTION SUMMONER
Your eidolon can climb with ease. Your eidolon gains a climb
Speed equal to half their Speed or 25 feet, whichever is less.
HULKING EVOLUTION
EVOLUTION SUMMONER
Your eidolon evolves, growing substantially in size. Your
eidolon becomes Large, instead of their previous size. This
doesn’t change any other statistics for your eidolon.
Because of the special link you share, you can ride your
eidolon without getting in each other’s way (see the Riding
Independent Creatures sidebar)
SUMMONER SHIELD EVOLUTION [one-action]
EIDOLON EVOLUTION SUMMONER
Your eidolon uses their manifested form to protect you when
you’re nearby. After your eidolon uses this action, you gain
a +2 circumstance bonus to AC until the beginning of your
next turn. This bonus applies only as long as you’re in your
eidolon’s reach (in most cases, this means your eidolon is
adjacent to you or in your space). This has no effect if you’re
not separately present, such as when using Synthesis.

These are at 6. Climbing evolution seems pretty week. Hulking evolution does nothing but offers ride. It doesn't even give reach. They trade the ability to enter dungeons.. so they can ride it...

Shield evolution wasn't even an evolution in PF1. It was given to Summoners for free.

It was given at level 4 in PF1. Now it's 6.

None of these evolutions really seem like they enhance the Eidolons power. It's just interesting variations on theme and it kinda feels bad to devote everything in evolutions and not really get very much customization. It begins to feel like having no real feats thats as powerful as a barbarian or fighters.

[TheGentlemanDM]

Again, this is the kind of thing that's more likely to be managed through a subclass that grants a free evolution at 1st level and one or two more free slots at higher levels than an entirely new system.

If we ballpark for 3 evolutions at 1st level, combined with 12 eidolon types, that's 36 different combinations. Add in another handful of feats at 2nd level, and we get to over 100 unique combinations by 2nd level.

If we use the ~40 evolution feats I proposed, even assuming that you only take on-level feats, you get about a quarter of a million unique eidolons. Add in the ability to take earlier feats in later slots and that number climbs to at least ten million mechanically unique eidolons.

And that's before we even look at ability scores and skills.

[Verzen]

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

You get to customize the actual PC though who has rage, hexes etc. In a lot of ways, the Eidolon IS our character. That's what makes it special and unique.

Okay, and again, that's what class feats are for. Why should Summoner effectively get twice as many of them?

At 1st level, what feats directly effect the Eidolon?

At 1st level, how many feats directly effect the PC?

PC = Background (skill feat), Ancestry feat (and heritage), possible class feat if they are a martial

Eidolon = Pick this pregen package that has zero customization on what it looks like or what it is... when Summoners are a weird kind of martial mix with some spellcasting, but they aren't true spellcasters.

So a PC has 3 feats. Eidolon has 0 feats.

Summoner gets its first feat at level 2.. and those feats are a bit underwhelming. If we choose an evolution, we have 1 evolution. So 1 thing to change our Eidolon. At level 2, we have far more customization than our Eidolon does and it was the exact opposite of that in PF1. I'd like that feeling back for summoner.

Let's say a player spends all their class feats on archetypes unrelated to their class. For simplicity, we'll exclude whatever abilities they get off their archetyping.

A barbarian with Rage who does this has no extra Rage abilities. In relation to their class, they are simply a barbarian with Dragon Rage, or whichever they chose. They can't breathe like a dragon. They can't fly like a dragon. They can't transform into a dragon. They just do a bit of extra elemental damage and are a little more resistant against similar things.

A hypothetical evolution point summoner who does that is still super-invested into being a summoner, having traded away all their class customization and yet retaining all their eidolon customization. Their eidolon will still be fire resistant, breath fire, will fly, have extra claws/heads/whatever, and overall be a massive versatility increase. Thanks to...

And a dedication Eidolon shouldn't get the evolutions that the main Eidolon gets.

[Verzen]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Again, this is the kind of thing that's more likely to be managed through a subclass that grants a free evolution at 1st level and one or two more free slots at higher levels than an entirely new system.

If we ballpark for 3 evolutions at 1st level, combined with 12 eidolon types, that's 36 different combinations. Add in another handful of feats at 2nd level, and we get to over 100 unique combinations by 2nd level.

If we use the ~40 evolution feats I proposed, even assuming that you only take on-level feats, you get about a quarter of a million unique eidolons. Add in the ability to take earlier feats in later slots and that number climbs to at least ten million mechanically unique eidolons.

And that's before we even look at ability scores and skills.

All the evolutions provided for the class atm though are pretty boring and come in way too late. What if I wanted to start out with an amphibious flavored Eidolon? Oh. I can't. Gotta wait till 4!

[Verzen]

What if I wanted a ranged Eidolon? Gotta wait till level 8!

[PossibleCabbage]

I think the main problem with the Summoner is that the class math is mostly solid with a few hangups here or there, but except for the fact that you can materialize a battle ghost or a war porcupine or a mini-dragon whenever you want, the class is pretty bland.

Like having played a summoner, pretty much every turn's actions are some combination of (using act together and tandem move as appropriate) Stride, Strike, Reinforce Eidolon, Boost Eidolon.

[TheGentlemanDM]

I agree that we need more choices at 1st and 2nd level, especially options that open up new actions and activities for the eidolon in combat.

But 'uniqueness' isn't the be-all and end-all of design. I could design a system with a 100 different options, but it wouldn't mean anything if those options didn't really make a difference.

Instead of asking for uniqueness (which is something that flavour and personality help cover for the first few levels), instead push for meaningful options.

[Verzen]

So what I mean by the customization for Eidolons. We should have as much customization for our Eidolons that we do for a PC. As in, we should be able to pick a heritage -ability- (As in, what plane does it deal in? Is it aquatic? An affinity for elements? What?) There are heritages that give 1/2 level resistance. There are ancestry feats and backgrounds we can pick.

I don't know why you guys have so much resistance to wanting us to have more customization. I am absolutely baffled by the push back.

[graystone]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the main problem with the Summoner is that the class math is mostly solid with a few hangups here or there, but except for the fact that you can materialize a battle ghost or a war porcupine or a mini-dragon whenever you want, the class is pretty bland.

Like having played a summoner, pretty much every turn's actions are some combination of (using act together and tandem move as appropriate) Stride, Strike, Reinforce Eidolon, Boost Eidolon.

Yep. Feels like you're siting there hitting buttons on your game controller... A, B, B, C, round after round while you cower in a corner someplace...

[Verzen]

I don't feel happy to have to spend precious feats on flavor. Like climbing or amphibious... things that are as powerful as heritages for ancestries.

[TheGentlemanDM]

Verzen wrote:

So what I mean by the customization for Eidolons. We should have as much customization for our Eidolons that we do for a PC. As in, we should be able to pick a heritage -ability- (As in, what plane does it deal in? Is it aquatic? An affinity for elements? What?) There are heritages that give 1/2 level resistance. There are ancestry feats and backgrounds we can pick.

I don't know why you guys have so much resistance to wanting us to have more customization. I am absolutely baffled by the push back.

I'm not saying that these are bad ideas.

I'm saying that these ideas are awkward to fit into the framework of PF2E.

PF2E is built such that it's more manageable for new players. That means limiting the number of choices and features at 1st level, and compartmentalizing a lot of choices at any level. At the same time, the development of a consistent series of frameworks for how classes develop (subclasses, class feats, and the spellcasting, companion, and familiar subsystems) helps ensure that classes are easily understandable when moving from one to the next, and more easily balanced in relation to each other.

Having eidolons that are a complex as PCs at 1st level goes against the first principle. Having an entire points based evolution system separately to their class feats pushes up against the third principle, and does some funky things with the second principle.

Even having frameworks for eidolons is pushing it, since that's essentially two or three subclass options (eidolon type and framework getting rolled out at 1st level).

That's why I'm arguing for frameworks and attacks to be choices at 1st level, because I can argue for things that will bend the system, but I won't waste my time arguing for things that will break the system. And I don't just mean power level.

We're in a brave new world, and that means that a lot of what used to be possible isn't anymore.

[TheGentlemanDM]

Verzen wrote:

I don't feel happy to have to spend precious feats on flavor. Like climbing or amphibious... things that are as powerful as heritages for ancestries.

As a side note, these are things that can be covered by evolution surge.

Climbing speeds and swim speeds aren't JUST flavour. They do have mechanical impact, and that means it costs a little bit of the class' power budget.

And if you want to flavour your eidolon as being, and use evolution surge to enable that when it's mechanically appropriate, that's already possible.

[Verzen]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Verzen wrote:

So what I mean by the customization for Eidolons. We should have as much customization for our Eidolons that we do for a PC. As in, we should be able to pick a heritage -ability- (As in, what plane does it deal in? Is it aquatic? An affinity for elements? What?) There are heritages that give 1/2 level resistance. There are ancestry feats and backgrounds we can pick.

I don't know why you guys have so much resistance to wanting us to have more customization. I am absolutely baffled by the push back.

I'm not saying that these are bad ideas.

I'm saying that these ideas are awkward to fit into the framework of PF2E.

PF2E is built such that it's more manageable for new players. That means limiting the number of choices and features at 1st level, and compartmentalizing a lot of choices at any level. At the same time, the development of a consistent series of frameworks for how classes develop (subclasses, class feats, and the spellcasting, companion, and familiar subsystems) helps ensure that classes are easily understandable when moving from one to the next, and more easily balanced in relation to each other.

Having eidolons that are a complex as PCs at 1st level goes against the first principle. Having an entire points based evolution system separately to their class feats pushes up against the third principle, and does some funky things with the second principle.

Even having frameworks for eidolons is pushing it, since that's essentially two or three subclass options (eidolon type and framework getting rolled out at 1st level).
We're in a brave new world, and that means that a lot of what used to be possible isn't anymore.

At least give those of us that 'want' it a "dummy" slate for further customization.