Stop trying to reinvent the wheel with Magus and Summoner

[Cyouni]

Eidolons have exactly as much flavour as sorcerers. Please show me where sorcerers get to build-a-bloodline.
And please show me where point buy is used in building PF2 stats.

And again, the problem is that you refuse to accept literally any way except yours. Multiple people have offered ways of customization that work with the system, except you've rejected all of them because you want build-a-bear and nothing else.

[Verzen]

Cyouni wrote:

Eidolons have exactly as much flavour as sorcerers. Please show me where sorcerers get to build-a-bloodline.

And please show me where point buy is used in building PF2 stats.

And again, the problem is that you refuse to accept literally any way except yours. Multiple people have offered ways of customization that work with the system, except you've rejected all of them because you want build-a-bear and nothing else.

Sorc get a ton of various spell options. Far more spells than Summoner AND Sorc wasn't defined by how their schtick was build-a-bear. Summoner was ALL about customization. That's what made it unique and fun.

[Verzen]

Cyouni wrote:

Eidolons have exactly as much flavour as sorcerers. Please show me where sorcerers get to build-a-bloodline.

And please show me where point buy is used in building PF2 stats.

And again, the problem is that you refuse to accept literally any way except yours. Multiple people have offered ways of customization that work with the system, except you've rejected all of them because you want build-a-bear and nothing else.

The way people suggest is, "use your imagination" or "wait till 10th level where you have enough evolution options"

[Cyouni]

Verzen wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Eidolons have exactly as much flavour as sorcerers. Please show me where sorcerers get to build-a-bloodline.

And please show me where point buy is used in building PF2 stats.

And again, the problem is that you refuse to accept literally any way except yours. Multiple people have offered ways of customization that work with the system, except you've rejected all of them because you want build-a-bear and nothing else.

The way people suggest is, "use your imagination" or "wait till 10th level where you have enough evolution options"

Literally half this thread ago. And I said something similar a page or two before that.

Except you've spent four pages and a week past that constantly claiming that no one's offered anything different, and saying that you want literally a character's worth of customization.

[Verzen]

Imagine if you will an anime in which stand users has no unique stands. They are the exact same strength. Exact same looks depending on creature type. Exact same abilities and there were only 8 different types. It would be boring.

[Cyouni]

Verzen wrote:

Imagine if you will an anime in which stand users has no unique stands. They are the exact same strength. Exact same looks depending on creature type. Exact same abilities and there were only 8 different types. It would be boring.

Oh, you mean the difference between Star Platinum, The World, and SBR The World? Or were you talking about how Star Platinum and Crazy Diamond are separated by having one ability difference, since both are close-range physical humanoid stands?

It's the difference between Jolyne's Stone Free and Mamezuku Rai's Doggy Style.

[Verzen]

It's disingenuous btw to count all 10 feats at being "customization."

1) You're assuming someone is taking ONLY evolution feats.

2) You are assuming all 10 levels.

3) Animal companions have varying stats. Eidolon have 16/16/16/10/10/10. Two of them adjust the wis by 2 and int 2 by or some such, but those really don't matter because Int is useless on an Eidolon. So is wis except wis is 1 more will resistant save.

Furthermore, animal companions have their OWN HP. Not my own. And they only use 1 action to get 2. AND if they get slowed, I dont get slowed.

[Cyouni]

Verzen wrote:

It's disingenuous btw to count all 10 feats at being "customization."

1) You're assuming someone is taking ONLY evolution feats.

2) You are assuming all 10 levels.

3) Animal companions have varying stats. Eidolon have 16/16/16/10/10/10. Two of them adjust the wis by 2 and int 2 by or some such, but those really don't matter because Int is useless on an Eidolon. So is wis except wis is 1 more will resistant save.

Furthermore, animal companions have their OWN HP. Not my own. And they only use 1 action to get 2. AND if they get slowed, I dont get slowed.

Yes, and you have exactly zero choice on how the animal companion stat spread changes, because they're tied to companion type. Spoilers: the modifiers are Str +2, Dex +2, Con +1, Int –4, Wis +1, Cha +0, and each type increases two of those by 1.

Second, you spend 1 action to get 2 from your companion, giving you 2 caster actions and 2 companion actions. Meanwhile, you activate Act Together to get 1 action from your eidolon and yourself, letting you get...2 summoner actions and 2 eidolon actions, but you can also do 3 summoner actions and 1 eidolon, or vice versa, something you can only do with an animal companion if you take Ranger's Companion's Cry. (And if your companion gets slowed, it does lose an action, meaning again, we're back to the same action equivalency.)

[Ruzza]

It seems premature to think that the summoner won't be seeing more eidolon options in the full release.

It's a wild thing to expect to get a new fully untested subsystem that is based on the historically problematic points-based evolution system.

[Ruzza]

Great! Keep at it!

[Martialmasters]

What's the standard level any class can achieve flight? I thought it was kinda late (permanent flight that is)

[Ruzza]

Martialmasters wrote:

What's the standard level any class can achieve flight? I thought it was kinda late (permanent flight that is)

So flight comes online in short bursts at level 7. Level 13 allows casters to get it for 1 hour bursts. And I believe that it's 16 for permanent flight?

So yes, 1 is far too early.

[Martialmasters]

Ruzza wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

What's the standard level any class can achieve flight? I thought it was kinda late (permanent flight that is)

So flight comes online in short bursts at level 7. Level 13 allows casters to get it for 1 hour bursts. And I believe that it's 16 for permanent flight?

So yes, 1 is far too early.

Yes I am in agreement and I think permanent flight by level 16 is fine. Since the eidolon is the real class and the summoner is just what summons your character and supports it via spells and maybe face skills and healing the eidolon.

[Cyouni]

Davido1000 wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Imagine if you will an anime in which stand users has no unique stands. They are the exact same strength. Exact same looks depending on creature type. Exact same abilities and there were only 8 different types. It would be boring.

Oh, you mean the difference between Star Platinum, The World, and SBR The World? Or were you talking about how Star Platinum and Crazy Diamond are separated by having one ability difference, since both are close-range physical humanoid stands?

It's the difference between Jolyne's Stone Free and Mamezuku Rai's Doggy Style.

Yes because those 5 characters were fighting each other constantly throughout the entire series were they? they didnt fight other stands which had completely different abilities and ways of fighting?

What a completely disingenuous argument, The summoners eidolon customization is pretty bare bones compared to its previous iteration. What if i want my Pidgey or Sandshrew Eidolon? Nope sorry you have to wait till mid-endgame if you want that sort of thing.

You really want to try this when Stands are notable for having very few abilities? And are specifically classed into types - short-ranged ones are completely supreme at fighting compared to long-range ones.

To take just examples from the same section, Crazy Diamond, Star Platinum, and The Hand are functionally identical in all aspects except one. Similarly, if you removed "healing" from Crazy Diamond and added on "can go long distances" and "uses electricity", suddenly it's very hard to tell apart from Red Hot Chili Pepper. Similarly Killer Queen is again, the standard close-range base, with two evolutions for its abilities. And that's not even considering things like Love Deluxe, which is actually a witch with Living Hair, and not a summoner.

[Temperans]

Stands have few options, but Eidolons are supposed to have many options.
That is the problem with the current system.

Eidolons are not supposed to be stands, they are supposed to be their own creatures with their own abilities.

[Ruzza]

Maybe if people would stop making weird comparisons to them, that would help your perception problem.

[Capn Cupcake]

Temperans wrote:

Stands have few options, but Eidolons are supposed to have many options.

That is the problem with the current system.

Eidolons are not supposed to be stands, they are supposed to be their own creatures with their own abilities.

You're moving the goal post. The initial argument was "What if stands were all similar" and the rebuttal is "they ARE all similar and they all feel completely different from each other".

I have said before and I stand by this, I think Eidolons could use *some* customization at level 1. Not a ton, just enough to make it feel more like mine from a mechanical sense. I honestly get where Verzen is coming from. Two things that are completely identical mechanically feel the same, at least to me. Right now, for my personal tastes, there's not enough to differentiate one Angel from another, or one Beast from another.

All that said, I do not think another subsystem is the answer. It's clumsy, inelegant, and honestly sounds like a headache and a hassle. I still think the correct, simplest option is a small list of keywords and you can pick 1 for each weapon. That would be *massive* in terms of making them feel different.

Pathfinder weapons are almost all the same aside from a couple keywords tied to each. Just apple the same philosophy to the edilon's attacks. Giving one trip or disarm or backstabber isn't going to break anything at level 1, and you get an entire layer of customization for a pittance of design space.

[Verzen]

Hell, I'd even go with, "Select one ability from a list of 3-5"

It would also allow for the future if they wanted to expand on the options a beast Eidolon got or some such.

[Verzen]

Capn Cupcake wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Stands have few options, but Eidolons are supposed to have many options.

That is the problem with the current system.

Eidolons are not supposed to be stands, they are supposed to be their own creatures with their own abilities.

You're moving the goal post. The initial argument was "What if stands were all similar" and the rebuttal is "they ARE all similar and they all feel completely different from each other".

I have said before and I stand by this, I think Eidolons could use *some* customization at level 1. Not a ton, just enough to make it feel more like mine from a mechanical sense. I honestly get where Verzen is coming from. Two things that are completely identical mechanically feel the same, at least to me. Right now, for my personal tastes, there's not enough to differentiate one Angel from another, or one Beast from another.

All that said, I do not think another subsystem is the answer. It's clumsy, inelegant, and honestly sounds like a headache and a hassle. I still think the correct, simplest option is a small list of keywords and you can pick 1 for each weapon. That would be *massive* in terms of making them feel different.

Pathfinder weapons are almost all the same aside from a couple keywords tied to each. Just apple the same philosophy to the edilon's attacks. Giving one trip or disarm or backstabber isn't going to break anything at level 1, and you get an entire layer of customization for a pittance of design space.

I also like that idea.