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manbearscientist wrote:
Synthesists are the equivalent of martial, and as above, people have suggested having more options for unique attacks (but they still get some). A common suggestion is for a Synthesist subclass, which would likely come with some mechanical benefit to make it more viable than now (THP + boosts, extra evolution feats, etc).
If there is one thing i ask for Synthesist, it is this; nobody is asking for it to be Fighter-levels of martial accuracy or damage. Just that it can compete in the same space as other martials and that it's better than what a Wildshape Druid can do.
THP+Boosts, extra evolutions, 100% great ideas
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-Poison- wrote: It didn't take away any of the fun (or as you call broken) toys or things that make Summoner an awesome and fun experience to play; 1e Unchained Summoner still felt good to play. I'm just telling you how people I played with felt. I'm not drawing any objective conclusions here, nor am I speaking for everyone. It's weird when people do that, I think. Wouldn't you agree?
Ruzza wrote: -Poison- wrote: It didn't take away any of the fun (or as you call broken) toys or things that make Summoner an awesome and fun experience to play; 1e Unchained Summoner still felt good to play. I'm just telling you how people I played with felt. I'm not drawing any objective conclusions here, nor am I speaking for everyone. It's weird when people do that, I think. Wouldn't you agree? No yeah that's fair, i'm just explaining what the situation was for 1e UnSummoner; i'm not trying to invalidate the experiences of your friends when they heard about the changes to UnSummoner friend.
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Manbearscientist. PF2 is built on each class having tokens with a few left over for class paths.
Martials spend all their tokens defenses and damage. Casters spend all their tokens on spells. Summoners in theme should have the choice to pick were they spend their token: Their Eidolon or Summoned Monsters.
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Temperans wrote: Manbearscientist. PF2 is built on each class having tokens with a few left over for class paths.
Martials spend all their tokens defenses and damage. Casters spend all their tokens on spells. Summoners in theme should have the choice to pick were they spend their token: Their Eidolon or Summoned Monsters.
The best route for that is a subclass choice, which is definitely how I'd like to see the class go. It is pretty obvious that there are three main playstyles that people want represented: summoning as a focus, the Eidolon as a focus, and the Synthesist.
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Agreed that the subclass choice is the best to represent that.
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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
-Poison- wrote: Megistone wrote: That is the point: it's not two characters, it's one.
If being a summoner means effectively controlling two full-strength PCs, then change the name if you want, it's not going to exist.
I honest to god have no idea how you can look at the Summoner without the Eidolon and think it counts as even 1 full-strength PC That’s one thing I myself am worried about. I do not want to feel like a Stand User from JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure where hurting my Eidolon hurts me, but I can’t fight and all I do is stand back and tell my Eidolon what to do and support it.
I’d like to be an independent combatant that is a viable spellcaster able to fight in tandem with my Eidolon. I’m off to the left casting Ray or Frost or Chilling Darkness or Bane, or even Heal or Heroism and damaging enemies my own self or buffing/helping the party as a team and my Eidolon is contributing with the OraOraOraOra punching.
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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
No. No. It was definitely the tuning.
Tuning includes things like how many points do they have access to, what can they use their points to buy, stuff like that. The fact natural attacks worked like they did and the fact you can buy 7 tentacles like you could at level 5 is a tuning issue. I already explained how you can both achieve balance and tune it correctly using the point system. No one wanted to address my comment.
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The system was fine the tuning was off because of natural attacks.
PF2 fixed natural attacks. So all they have to do tune it to PF2.
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Verzen wrote: No. No. It was definitely the tuning.
Tuning includes things like how many points do they have access to, what can they use their points to buy, stuff like that. The fact natural attacks worked like they did and the fact you can buy 7 tentacles like you could at level 5 is a tuning issue. I already explained how you can both achieve balance and tune it correctly using the point system. No one wanted to address my comment.
I sincerely disagree. The issue was that if I wanted a spider, I had to buy extra legs. Two heads, had to buy it. And I got benefits for them.
Wings had a cost, and they came with a big power boost for permanent flying.
Everything you got came with power, meaning there was no incentive to build an Angel, just because I wanted an Angel.
And the fact the the base mechanic of the class was assembling stat bonuses is what made the class inherently feel like power gaming incarnate.
By divorcing description from mechanics, you solve these issues. Adding a point buy system back in brings us right back to a system thats transparently about buying character bonuses for resources, as opposed to designing a cool companion and unlocking mechanical benefits as you go - exactly like everyone else does.
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By divorcing the two it stops being a Summoner.
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Temperans wrote: By divorcing the two it stops being a Summoner. Says an extremely limiting and narrow view on what a Summoner is and can be.
Luckily for me, precedent is not that Pathfinder 2E is strictly bound by the chains of the past.
This is an opportunity to redefine what the Summoner is, without the baggage and flaws of the 1E Summoner.
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Verzen wrote: KrispyXIV wrote: Verzen wrote: No. No. It was definitely the tuning.
Tuning includes things like how many points do they have access to, what can they use their points to buy, stuff like that. The fact natural attacks worked like they did and the fact you can buy 7 tentacles like you could at level 5 is a tuning issue. I already explained how you can both achieve balance and tune it correctly using the point system. No one wanted to address my comment.
I sincerely disagree. The issue was that if I wanted a spider, I had to buy extra legs. Two heads, had to buy it. And I got benefits for them.
Wings had a cost, and they came with a big power boost for permanent flying.
Everything you got came with power, meaning there was no incentive to build an Angel, just because I wanted an Angel.
And the fact the the base mechanic of the class was assembling stat bonuses is what made the class inherently feel like power gaming incarnate.
By divorcing description from mechanics, you solve these issues. Adding a point buy system back in brings us right back to a system thats transparently about buying character bonuses for resources, as opposed to designing a cool companion and unlocking mechanical benefits as you go - exactly like everyone else does. "I disagree now let me explain how I dont understanding the difference between tuning and the system, yet again."
This is starting to get exhausting. Did you buy the climb speed or the wings so your eidolon could visit you a top your tower? It sure must be nice.
As a side note, it wasn't 'just' natural attacks being good.
I had a supporting Eidolon and a melee Summoner (Blood God Disciple). At level 6, the Eidolon was an absolute skill-monkey and the party's crafter and healer. Their best skill was Stealth, at a +23, and they had Healer's Hands (and a crafted Healer's Gloves) for Heal. If I remember right, no one else in the party had a +20 roll to a skill.
By all means, that was practically not even playing the same game as the ball-o-tentacles. But with little effort, it pretty easily outperformed PCs in an entirely different field.
Yes, that is an impressive feat of customization. But it shows that the problem isn't solved simply through contact with the 2E system. With similar control over the customization like the 1E Summoner had (in specific, the boring +X type of customization), it would be possible to a do similar thing in this system: build a thing capable of outperforming PCs in various fields with little investment.
I don't want to replicate that bunch of +X levers. I don't really want a single feat that is just "You get a +2 X bonus to...' minus maybe the higher level armor and saves feats. I want unique and flavorful attacks for the Eidolon and combination moves for the summoner.
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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
manbearscientist wrote: As a side note, it wasn't 'just' natural attacks being good.
I had a supporting Eidolon and a melee Summoner (Blood God Disciple). At level 6, the Eidolon was an absolute skill-monkey and the party's crafter and healer. Their best skill was Stealth, at a +23, and they had Healer's Hands (and a crafted Healer's Gloves) for Heal. If I remember right, no one else in the party had a +20 roll to a skill.
By all means, that was practically not even playing the same game as the ball-o-tentacles. But with little effort, it pretty easily outperformed PCs in an entirely different field.
Yes, that is an impressive feat of customization. But it shows that the problem isn't solved simply through contact with the 2E system. With similar control over the customization like the 1E Summoner had (in specific, the boring +X type of customization), it would be possible to a do similar thing in this system: build a thing capable of outperforming PCs in various fields with little investment.
I don't want to replicate that bunch of +X levers. I don't really want a single feat that is just "You get a +2 X bonus to...' minus maybe the higher level armor and saves feats. I want unique and flavorful attacks for the Eidolon and combination moves for the summoner.
Like I said already. That was definitely a tuning issue. Skilled at level 1 gave +8 to one skill. That's way broken.
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I don't think eidolons defense is a huge deal other than half it's body has less AC than the other so he can still get critically hit more easily.
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