Sudden Bolt op? (should I allow this)

[Temperans]

He is also comparing 3 action Magic Missile vs 2 action Sudden Bolt.

[Ascalaphus]

I don't think a level+3 monster is the common case that you should pin the comparison on. Those are endboss monsters, generally the encounter in an AP that all the angry reviews get written about. The specific gimmick of Magic Missile is that it always hits, so it's really good against monsters with problematically high AC and saves.

If instead you're using Sudden Bolt to quickly kill one of the lesser monsters in an encounter so that you have your hands free against the boss, then the comparison turns much more in favor of Sudden Bolt.

[Deadmanwalking]

Ascalaphus wrote:

If instead you're using Sudden Bolt to quickly kill one of the lesser monsters in an encounter so that you have your hands free against the boss, then the comparison turns much more in favor of Sudden Bolt.

They do, but not enough that it's the definitive winner.

The three relevant Save numbers for a level 5 monster are +15, +12, and +9.

That makes for average damage of 17.875 vs. the High Reflex Save, 22.75 vs. the Moderate Reflex Save, and 27.625 vs. the Low Reflex Save.

That looks to me like they're very close to on par vs. on level opposition, which makes Magic Missile a better spell to prep in many ways since it also has such good uses vs. bosses. Sudden Bolt would be better vs. low level foes, but if you're using a max level single target spell against those you are generally making a poor life choice, that's what AoE spells are for.

Which is not to say Sudden Bolt doesn't have advantages, especially for a spontaneous caster (or a Druid, who lack Magic Missile), since it is only two actions and is indeed slightly better vs. low or on-level foes. An Evoker can also make good use of combining it with Force Bolt to nova a bit.

But overpowered? Not a chance.

[SuperBidi]

Sudden Bolt is only valid at second level. The problem being that there are no versions of Magic Missile at second level. And comparing a level 1 Magic Missile and a level 2 Sudden Bolt will clearly show that Sudden Bolt's better.
But in the long run, Magic Missile progression is higher making it a better spell outside even levels.

[Unicore]

SuperBidi wrote:

Sudden Bolt is only valid at second level. The problem being that there are no versions of Magic Missile at second level. And comparing a level 1 Magic Missile and a level 2 Sudden Bolt will clearly show that Sudden Bolt's better.

But in the long run, Magic Missile progression is higher making it a better spell outside even levels.

Specifically, Magic missile is an exceptional signature spell for a sorcerer, even though you gain nothing by casting it out of even level slots, because it also lets you get a very powerful 3rd action damage option that you can tailor down as you use it against targets that look like they are on their last legs.

Really the 2 are not competing. A sorcerer could hit an enemy with a level 3 sudden bolt and a follow up level 3 single action magic missile, which is absolutely worth doing against a level +3 boss.

[voideternal]

SuperBidi wrote:

Sudden Bolt is only valid at second level. The problem being that there are no versions of Magic Missile at second level. And comparing a level 1 Magic Missile and a level 2 Sudden Bolt will clearly show that Sudden Bolt's better.

But in the long run, Magic Missile progression is higher making it a better spell outside even levels.

Here are the expected damage values for a level 3 wizard comparing level 2 sudden bolt vs 3-action level 1 magic missile against level+2 and level+3 monsters:

Level 3 wizard DC: 10 [base] 3 [level] 4 [stat] 2 [prof] = DC 19

Sudden bolt level 2 base damage: 26
3-action level 1 magic missile damage: 10.5

VS Reflex +17 (level+3 high reflex):

crit fails on 1, passes on 2, crit passes on 12:
5% 52 damage
50% 13 damage
45% 0 damage

Sudden bolt level 2 average damage: 9.1
3-action level 1 magic missile average damage: 10.5

VS Reflex +14 (level+3 moderate reflex):

crit fails on 1, fails on 2, passes on 5, crit passes on 15:
5% 52 damage
15% 26 damage
50% 13 damage
30% 0 damage

Sudden bolt level 2 average damage: 13
3-action level 1 magic missile average damage: 10.5

VS Reflex +11 (level+3 low reflex):

crit fails on 1, fails on 2, passes on 8, crit passes on 18:
5% 52 damage
30% 26 damage
50% 13 damage
15% 0 damage

Sudden bolt level 2 average damage: 16.9
3-action level 1 magic missile average damage: 10.5

VS Reflex +15 (level+2 high reflex):

crit fails on 1, fails on 2, passes on 4, crit passes on 14:
5% 52 damage
10% 26 damage
50% 13 damage
35% 0 damage

Sudden bolt level 2 average damage: 11.7
3-action level 1 magic missile average damage: 10.5

VS Reflex +12 (level+2 moderate reflex):

crit fails on 1, fails on 2, passes on 7, crit passes on 17:
5% 52 damage
25% 26 damage
50% 13 damage
20% 0 damage

Sudden bolt level 2 average damage: 15.6
3-action level 1 magic missile average damage: 10.5

VS Reflex +9 (level+2 low reflex):

crit fails on 1, fails on 2, passes on 10, crit passes on 20:
5% 52 damage
40% 26 damage
50% 13 damage
5% 0 damage

Sudden bolt level 2 average damage: 19.5
3-action level 1 magic missile average damage: 10.5

level 2 Sudden bolt out-damages level 1 magic missile in a majority of cases, except the most difficult of monsters. That said, across the higher saves, magic missile comes pretty close despite being a lower level spell.

[Staffan Johansson]

Another thing to keep in mind is that Sudden Bolt definitely outdamages Magic Missile for primal casters, given that they don't get Magic Missile.

[Deadmanwalking]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Another thing to keep in mind is that Sudden Bolt definitely outdamages Magic Missile for primal casters, given that they don't get Magic Missile.

True. I mentioned that in my post, in fact. But allowing Primal casters to have a single target option on par with Magic Missile in power level, or a tad below, seems entirely reasonable to me.