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Way back in the days of 3.5, there was a Forgotten Realms book called Unapproachable East with a race in it called the hagspawn. Unlike the weird-but-pretty female changelings of Pathfinder, the hagspawn was a hag's brawny-but-ugly son. Something about the idea was pretty cool, and I made a hagspawn barbarian character I quite liked, pretty overtly based on Caliban from The Tempest.
So now I'm wondering what the most optimal way to recreate this character in Pathfinder would be. Hag-riven bloodrager looks like the most obvious way to make a hag-descended tanky character, but is there anything else hag-related I'm missing?
I haven't seen many guides to optimizing the hag-riven, nor is it mentioned in any of the bloodrager guides I've seen, so I'm looking for some practical optimization advice for making this concept work. Reskinning the changeling is an obvious racial pick (although I don't see anything in the rules that says the archetype is exclusive to changelings), but I'm a bit leery of building a melee character with a charisma penalty, so I might just go human or even tiefling.
The hag bloodline works thematically but it also looks kinda weak.
Eh....I mean it's your and your GMs world, but the hag-riven archetype reads descriptively as though it's intended only for Changelings (though doesn't appear to actually be required) and Changeling's are exclusively female on Golarion.
So...if you're trying to stick to Golarion lore friendly options I think the answer is...male off-spring of hags don't exist.
Eh....I mean it's your and your GMs world, but the hag-riven archetype reads descriptively as though it's intended only for Changelings (though doesn't appear to actually be required) and Changeling's are exclusively female on Golarion.
So...if you're trying to stick to Golarion lore friendly options I think the answer is...male off-spring of hags don't exist.
This guy would be an anomaly. We're playing relatively loose with the lore.
I mean, if that's the case just play a male character with some sort of magic the manifests in a unique way.
What if the reason hags don't have male off-spring is simply because they kill them all at birth because they don't have any similarities to hags and something about the way male hags were in the ancient past has led all hags to always kills their male children, except for your character which somehow escaped that fate.
That leaves you infinite room really to explore your character however you would like.
I mean, if that's the case just play a male character with some sort of magic the manifests in a unique way.
What if the reason hags don't have male off-spring is simply because they kill them all at birth because they don't have any similarities to hags and something about the way male hags were in the ancient past has led all hags to always kills their male children, except for your character which somehow escaped that fate.
That leaves you infinite room really to explore your character however you would like.
Exactly. I would still like to have some thematic connection to hags in the build, though.
I've also just remembered that Accursed oracles are a thing. The downside to that curse looks pretty situational, and might not be a big problem depending on who else is in the party, and I get a couple of nice debuff spells in return.
So of the Hag-Riven bloodrager and the Accursed oracle, which would make a more effective tank? Or are there any other options I should consider?
Grab a Thawn, power it down to CR 1/3, then build your PC on top of that. I've used the Thawn to sub in for a monstrous son of a hag that WASN'T slain by their mother in the past, as a GM. It's not much of a stretch to take a CR2 Humanoid(Giant), size them down to Medium but really big and broad shouldered, hideously ugly, and with a penchant for camouflaging in mud and refuse, slap a Str and Wis bonus on them, a heavy Cha penalty, and a penalty that if they spot their own reflection they need to make a scaling Will save or get Sickened.
For racial abilities give them +2 to Stealth in mud or rocks; +2 on Craft: Traps, and Low-Light Vision. They also get Throw Anything as a bonus feat; they can trade the bonus feat and Craft: Traps to instead have Enlarge Person (self only) 1/day, plus one use every 5 levels?
I don't know, just a few thoughts.
We're playing kinda loose with the lore, but homebrew races are out, I'm afraid.
I mean, if that's the case just play a male character with some sort of magic the manifests in a unique way.
What if the reason hags don't have male off-spring is simply because they kill them all at birth because they don't have any similarities to hags and something about the way male hags were in the ancient past has led all hags to always kills their male children, except for your character which somehow escaped that fate.
That leaves you infinite room really to explore your character however you would like.
Exactly. I would still like to have some thematic connection to hags in the build, though.
I've also just remembered that Accursed oracles are a thing. The downside to that curse looks pretty situational, and might not be a big problem depending on who else is in the party, and I get a couple of nice debuff spells in return.
So of the Hag-Riven bloodrager and the Accursed oracle, which would make a more effective tank? Or are there any other options I should consider?
Assuming you're willing to forgo a mechanical connection, which I think you should, my vote would go to arcane bloodrager.
At 4th level you get the ability to enjoy the benefits of blur or protection from arrows or resist energy when you enter bloodrage.
At 8th level you can choose haste or displacement.
Combined with other spell slot that you get you can buff yourself to be relatively durable, stoneskin for example. And in general have spells to support you and your party.
The arcane bloodline can be a flavored connection to hags, even if it's not direct.
Why go arcane? There is a hag bloodline for bloodrager.
Mechanically it's not very good in my opinion.
Beyond that, being radically not like a hag makes sense to me for a character that will be uniquely the only male off-spring of a hag (perhaps only in recorded history [but maybe ever] to reach adulthood).
To me it makes sense that a male hag child wouldn't show the same traits as standard hags.
However you can go any way you want with it.
The hag bloodline would more represent that some great grandmother was a hag, that had a changeling child, that had a human child (or some other race child), that then gave birth to a male child which exhibited the hag bloodline traits.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just providing potential reasons not to go that route.
Assuming you're willing to forgo a mechanical connection, which I think you should, my vote would go to arcane bloodrager.
Why not an arcane bloodline and the hag-riven archetype? That looks like a pretty decent archetype for smashing stuff up and doing touch spells.
And I feel like I could make a pretty decent melee/debuffer oracle with the Accursed curse, and probably either the Shadow or Ascetic mystery.
That is the male offspring of a hag. There are no male changelings. No “hags kill their male offspring but you escaped that” background will be valid for Pathfinder’s canon setting, as male offspring of hags are the monstrous humanoid species Caliban. They have racial HD, so you probably can’t use that, unless the GM is willing to work with that.
EDIT: Also, I really hate D&D fanboys claiming Pathfinder’s changeling race is weird. Changelings are a mythological creature from real life myths about supernatural creatures swapping their babies with human babies. Makes perfect sense to me that changelings would look attractive, because ugly children have less chances of survival due to how awful humans, especially human children, are.
I would point out that Calibans aren't really the offspring in the traditional sense, they're created by hags but magically from...based on the description is basically ooze and ichor that willed to become a living thing.
Some forms of creating offspring involve more ooze than others...
Love, the kind you clean up with a mop and bucket.
Did not know there was a creature just called a Caliban, but that's definitely what I'm going for.
I actually am the GM and this guy is an NPC, so I can probably throw a few class levels on him anyway. This critter would probably work best as a straight-up barbarian, I suppose?
well, our group actually kinda skipped over the 'female only' part of the changeling race at the beginning. it took us a while to notice it (were using English source books but English isn't our main language, and we just run over the fluff bit at the start).
if your GM isn't that against it why not ask if you can just play a male changeling? if you ignore the first few lines there is very little in the rules to oppose it. (or just be a female changeling who's mom switched the bottle on her when she was young and accidentally had her drink this)
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One thing of note. In Pathfinder 2e there are male and female Changelings as defined as "children of hags". The main difference being that male Changelings rarely hear "the call" as their mothers really don't care about them very much and most likely just pass as human pretty well.
One thing of note. In Pathfinder 2e there are male and female Changelings as defined as "children of hags". The main difference being that male Changelings rarely hear "the call" as their mothers really don't care about them very much and most likely just pass as human pretty well.
That's actually kind of lame.
I prefer the PF1 version of female children only. It makes Changelings less interesting (IMO) if both females and males exist.
One thing of note. In Pathfinder 2e there are male and female Changelings as defined as "children of hags". The main difference being that male Changelings rarely hear "the call" as their mothers really don't care about them very much and most likely just pass as human pretty well.
I've skimmed a few 2e books but so far it seems pretty rudimentary in terms of character options. Maybe I'll give it another look once they've published a bit more material.
Changelings in general seem a bit too frail and spellcasterly for what I'm looking for. That -2 to Constitution is pretty rough.
Wow. If you didn't like my Thawn idea upthread, you could've just said so, not said "no homebrew races" then straight up agreed to a monster as the race a couple posts later. :)
Seriously though, Caliban is probably more accurate to what you needed anyway so good call.
I was originally planning on trying to keep this guy within the rules of what a PC could be, but I made an exception when I saw there was a monster race that was already exactly what I was looking for.
Just a note, but in Pathfinder 2e they dropped the requirement that all changelings have to be female. So playing a male changeling should be okay lore-wise, at least on Golarion.
Just a note, but in Pathfinder 2e they dropped the requirement that all changelings have to be female. So playing a male changeling should be okay lore-wise, at least on Golarion.
Eh, Lot of people aren't adapting to 2e because they aren't fans of the setting changes.
I definitely need to remember "son of a hag" as a colorful but "clean" swear for future games! :) /tangent
Just a note, but in Pathfinder 2e they dropped the requirement that all changelings have to be female. So playing a male changeling should be okay lore-wise, at least on Golarion.Eh, Lot of people aren't adapting to 2e because they aren't fans of the setting changes.
Pretty much all of the setting changes are "the APs and the PFS campaigns happened" and "we're clarifying some stuff." This seems like a bizarre reason not to look at the new game.
"I want to play a merfolk bloodrager" is a fine reason to stick with 1e, but "goblins are playable" is an absurd one (they were in PF1 too!).
Just a note, but in Pathfinder 2e they dropped the requirement that all changelings have to be female. So playing a male changeling should be okay lore-wise, at least on Golarion.Eh, Lot of people aren't adapting to 2e because they aren't fans of the setting changes.Pretty much all of the setting changes are "the APs and the PFS campaigns happened" and "we're clarifying some stuff." This seems like a bizarre reason not to look at the new game.
"I want to play a merfolk bloodrager" is a fine reason to stick with 1e, but "goblins are playable" is an absurd one (they were in PF1 too!).
Playable is different than core. Core assumes a commonality and basic acceptance that doesn't make sense. 2e took goblins from the movie gremlins, a little goofy but ultimately murderous and horrifying, to pyromaniac pet eating kender, and kender are and will forever be s#$!.
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Just a note, but in Pathfinder 2e they dropped the requirement that all changelings have to be female. So playing a male changeling should be okay lore-wise, at least on Golarion.Eh, Lot of people aren't adapting to 2e because they aren't fans of the setting changes.
As someone that's not adopting 2E, it's not because of setting changes.
For the most part the setting changes are sideline stuff, like Changeling's not being male only. Outside of a PC character, it's probably not even going to show up. Even if it does, if my group doesn't like it, it should be easy enough to change. Suddenly that NPC is a female changeling! It likely changes nothing about the story.
No, it's the mechanics of 2E that I don't like. There are good aspects to it, but the basic math of the system isn't fun to me.
Just a note, but in Pathfinder 2e they dropped the requirement that all changelings have to be female. So playing a male changeling should be okay lore-wise, at least on Golarion.Eh, Lot of people aren't adapting to 2e because they aren't fans of the setting changes.As someone that's not adopting 2E, it's not because of setting changes.
I didn't say everyone
I didn't say everyoneJust a note, but in Pathfinder 2e they dropped the requirement that all changelings have to be female. So playing a male changeling should be okay lore-wise, at least on Golarion.Eh, Lot of people aren't adapting to 2e because they aren't fans of the setting changes.As someone that's not adopting 2E, it's not because of setting changes.
Well I wanted to point out what I feel is the bigger reason.
I don't personally (and I know it's anecdotal) know anyone who has said "I'm not playing 2E because they changed the setting from 1E." The people I know who don't want to play 2E it's because of the drastic change in mechanics leading to a completely different feel for the game play, and we don't care for it.
PF1 you played a super hero. In PF2 you're the protagonist of a survival horror show.
So my idea is that this caliban dude was created by a hag to be her "son" (grown in a cauldron like a bacterial culture). That got me thinking about how maybe the other hags in the coven might have their own "sons". Any other monsters out there that would go well as a hag's bodyguard?
Ideally creatures suited to a northern woodland/hill climate; this game is set in something loosely resembling northern Ontario. An origin in North American (especially Native) folklore would be a bonus.
I haven't played 2e yet, personally. Might get into it if they published a bit more material, but for now it looks pretty limited (I have the same problem with D&D 5e, which has like seven official books out). My favourite thing about Pathfinder 1e is how much stuff there is for it. It's great for world-building because it gives you so many options.
What about 3rd party races?
Hexbreather is a child of a hag and an orc.
Hexbreather looks pretty cool and might make a decent NPC, but I'm mostly looking for something a hag could make through a ritual or something.
The coven consists of an annis hag, a green hag, and a vampiric witch. So the caliban dude was the annis' son until he ran off, the green hag has a skinstitch, and the vampire has a stone giant she's turned into a really big vampire spawn. After the caliban runs away, the annis tries to replace him, ideally with something that isn't a construct or undead, since I have those bases covered. Any other monsters that can be artificially created?