I know there have been many threads about Alchemists being weak ect I'm not gonna debate that instead I am asking as the title states if giving an alchemist all the benefits of 2 separate research fields would be OP?
I've seen the new 8th lvl feat that gives extra unlimited alchemical options I think wile it and several other feats in the APG are a step in the right direction it's not enough and comes too late for the poor Alchemist.
I really like the concept of Alchemists but have to admit they are slightly weaker than most if not all other class choices. I am tinkering with the Idea of giving 2 research fields at first lvl.
This wouldn't make the Alchemist more powerful but it would give it a touch more versatility which seems to be it's stock and trade anyway. Is this a good idea? Would it cause any problems? Would it make up for the classes inherent weaknesses?
I am also toying with allowing them to take Dex as their class att boost instead of int but keeping int as the "key" class attribute for class DC's ect.
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It would be stronger and it would make it more versatile. But it would make up for the class' inherent weaknesses? I hardly think so.
I would go as far as to say that you could allow two fields and it would still play exactly the same way as a single field alchemist in combat. It would have a LOT of cantrips at higher levels and Advanced Alchemy would be quite good with lots of extra items from different types, but Quick Alchemy, the Action Economy, weak chassis and overall feel of the class? I don't think it would be impacted at all.
It would be stronger and it would make it more versatile. But it would make up for the class' inherent weaknesses? I hardly think so.
I would go as far as to say that you could allow two fields and it would still play exactly the same way as a single field alchemist in combat. It would have a LOT of cantrips at higher levels and Advanced Alchemy would be quite good with lots of extra items from different types, but Quick Alchemy, the Action Economy, weak chassis and overall feel of the class? I don't think it would be impacted at all.
So do you think the Dex as main att (as prev mentioned) would help?
What more needs to be done to make them on par with other classes?
Would giving Alchemists rogue lvl of prof/training with their weapons do the trick?
EG:
5th lvl expert prof in Bombs/UA/Simple weapons
7th lvl Weapon Spec
13th lvl Expert Light armor Prof and Master weapon prof(Bombs/UA/Simple)
15th lvl Greater weapon Spec
19th lvl master light armor prof
instead of what they currently get
7th lvl Expert (Bombs/UA/Simple)
13th lvl Weapon Spec and Light armor Expert Prof
19th lvl Light armor Master Prof
This would let the Alchemist do more Martial things like use mutagens/poison in CC or toss bombs more reliability and even give them a bit more AC.
If that's not enough you could do both 2 Research fields and Rogue weapons prof lvl. It allows them to take a balanced heal/harm approach(Churgin/Bomb) or go all in offensive (Mutagen/Toxicologist) or any mix in-between.
I think the Alchemist should have better research fields, the new Toxicologist one certainly is a step into the right direction. Several of the class' feats should be backed into the class or simply give along with the big choices. For example, a Bomber alchemist should be given Quick Bomber, similar to what happens with a bard.
I also think that the class should interact more with alchemical items, rather than just being crafters and glorified item dispensers (the so called "right" way of playing an alchemist, pure b+*@@&!s), having an Alchemist in the party should mean something more than free alchemical items, these we can buy in the story and we don't because most of the time [u]they are not worth the cost[/u]. Items crafted by the Alchemist should be better than the ones from the store, either bigger numbers (easiest to bake into the class) or other tangential benefits (harder to implement and veers too much into feat territory) like bigger dices, longer duration from the get go. The feats should be focused towards that. Instead of modifying a single item, like Mutagenist feats, they could apply to broader categories, like a Fighter choosing Weapon proficiency. Alas, all of these I've mentioned above require more than minor tweaks, for small scale stuff I would start by granting each research field one of the level 1 feats, then look at the Rogue's proficiency progression and mirror it but with one level delay, I would also make a level 18 (or 20) feat that granted Legendary Proficiency for Bombs only (assuming the Class would reach Master as baseline).
They should also fully enjoy being a PF2e class, which means that they need more feats that lets them [u]do[/u] cool stuff, rather than enhance what they already can do (Far Lobber, alchemical savant,poison resistance, efficient alchemy, enduring alch, extend elixir,etc) or are outright PF1e-style tax feats (Quick Bomber, Powerful Alchemy, Calculated Splash, Expanded, etc). Flashier and impactful alchemical items wouldn't hurt as well.
Alchemy is a broad category with plenty of great sources for inspiration, I'm honestly baffled that it turned out so mechanically janky and thematically tame.
Would giving Alchemists rogue lvl of prof/training with their weapons do the trick?
EG:
5th lvl expert prof in Bombs/UA/Simple weapons
7th lvl Weapon Spec
13th lvl Expert Light armor Prof and Master weapon prof(Bombs/UA/Simple)
15th lvl Greater weapon Spec
19th lvl master light armor profinstead of what they currently get
7th lvl Expert (Bombs/UA/Simple)
13th lvl Weapon Spec and Light armor Expert Prof
19th lvl Light armor Master ProfThis would let the Alchemist do more Martial things like use mutagens/poison in CC or toss bombs more reliability and even give them a bit more AC.
If that's not enough you could do both 2 Research fields and Rogue weapons prof lvl. It allows them to take a balanced heal/harm approach(Churgin/Bomb) or go all in offensive (Mutagen/Toxicologist) or any mix in-between.
Funny how you had the exact same idea as me! Although I suggested a delay because the Alch would be mostly fighting from afar (since only the Mutagenist encourages melee builds, which is only 1/4 of the class' routes pushing for it).
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Giving them better proficiencies later doesn’t solve any of their issues. The class is already functional at level 8-11 (exact level debatable) so getting master at 13 or 15 while it will help them, it won’t solve the issues regarding them.
I would suggest
1) Change reagents per day to 10+INT at all levels, to solve the fact that they suck at early levels due to reagent starve. Alchemist has a lot of quadratic scaling. As they gain levels their stuff gets longer durations which means they need less reagents as they get more, and have few reagents when they need a lot. This fixes that.
2) Add an exploration activity or focus spell or whatever you want to recover reagents during the day. Ideally should be something like “recover 3 reagents, up to the amount spent since you last used this activity”. This makes quick alchemy (and additives) which are supposed to be a selling point of the class over just buying alchemical items, actually usable at lower levels.
3) Allow dex as key stat for Bomber and Tox, str or dex for mutagenist, wis for Chirurgeon.
4) Change Mutagenist’s first level benefit to “You are trained in medium armour and martial weapons. At 7th level you become expert in martial weapons, at 13th level you become expert in medium armour and at 19th level you become master in medium armour.”
5) Give the effect of calculated splash and expanded splash to all alchemists at level 4 and 10. Move the splash radius enhancer of expanded splash to a level 1 feat.
6) Add to the chirurgeon’s first level feature “and you treat your crafting proficiency rank as your medicine proficiency rank for all purposes when doing so” to prevent issues where you still need to boost medicine to get higher level treat wounds. You might also allow taking medicine skill feats with your crafting prof rank.
7) Add a 1st Level feature “Your infused items use your class DC instead of their own DC, if your class DC is higher.”
8) You might want to give free 1st level feats to all research fields. Quick Bomber for Bomber, Familiar for everyone else. I don’t think this is essential though.
Remove all feats made redundant by these changes, move potent poisoner to a crafting skill feat.
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To address your main point though, two research fields won’t do much. Chirurgeon and Mutagenist still fundamentally give nothing except their 13th level feature (because the other features are all of questionable use). So you’re still going to see everyone pick Tox or Bomber and play exactly the same, they’d just get a minor bump at 13th. Except, of course, tox+bomber who gets the power of both (prepoison all your party’s ranged attacks, not hitting your party with splash and perpetual bombs).
I can see them errating the rest of the disciplins with the stuff you make users your class DC if that is better as poisoner basically gets that for free right away. It also would give all alchemists a bit more reason to keep their INT high.