Demoralize Opponent


Rules Questions


Hello there, one of my players wants to build an intimidate build with the thug/inquisitor combo and I was wondering what are people's opinions on the repeating +5 DC in combat for demoralize, does it apply on both success and failure or just on the failure? Also do I need to be wary of anything else with this build in particular? He's planning on utilizing dazzling display to basically frighten everything, does this work on animals and such low int creatures? Does it only not affect those immune to mind affecting things?


It will work on anything not immune to fear/mind affecting. Paladins for example are immune to the results, although they would certainly know the person tried.

Retry says you can retry on the same opponent. "Any conditions that apply to successive attempts to use the skill successfully" under skills section.

So the +5 would be no matter the result.

Liberty's Edge

AoN wrote:

Intimidate (Cha)

Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 99
You can use this skill to frighten an opponent or to get them to act in a way that benefits you. This skill includes verbal threats and displays of prowess.
FAQ wrote:
Intimidate, in particular, is a mind-affecting fear effect, so fearless and mindless creatures are immune to all uses of Intimidate.

Mindless creatures and those unaffected from fear are immune.

The first quote seems to imply that some ability to communicate is needed.

I would add a circumstance penalty if you don't share a language and/or if the body shapes of the character using the skill and the targets are vastly different (A human trying to intimidate an octopus or a shark seem questionable).

Quote:
Try Again: You can attempt to Intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after 1 hour has passed.

The +5 is for each check tried, regardless of the result.


I'm just gonna put thiis here because it's easy to miss:

DEMORALIZE wrote:
You gain a +4 bonus on checks to demoralize creatures smaller than you and take a –4 penalty on checks to demoralize creatures larger than you.

This isn't cumulative per size difference or anything, so my medium hal-orc has a +4 vs anything small or smaller and a -4 vs anything large or larger. This means Enlarge Person can give you a +4 to your intimidate check provided the enemy creature is the same size as you or 1 size larger (but wouldn't do anything if they're already smaller than you or 2 sizes larger).


Hmm thanks everyone, one more question, if a creature becomes frightened, it can say take a withdraw action I presume to run away, however if it turns a corner after taking that action and is no longer in view of the person doing a dazzling display, would it stop immediately or continue its full distance...how exactly does that work?


Shaken doesn't make you run away, and usually Demoralize can't turn Shaken into Frightened (fear effects can stack, but Demoralize specifically says it doesn't). Dazzling Display uses the demoralize rules, it just lets you target everyone instead of one person.

DEMORALIZE wrote:
Demoralizing the same creature again extends the duration; it doesn’t cause a stronger fear condition.

However there are abilities that change that.

If you do become Frightened, there is usually a duration (3 turns or whatever). This means you have to flee for the duration (even if you can no longer see the source of your fear), but you may return once the Frightened condition wears off. This is why fear is such a powerful debuff - 3 rounds of fear likely means 6 rounds out of the combat (3 fleeing, 3 returning).

It can also force you to expend daily abilities, eg. A Sorcerer trapped in a pit with a frightening enemy would HAVE TO use Fly/Slider-Climb/etc to attempt to escape if the spell is available, whether they wanted to or not. If they have multiple spells/etc that could let them escape they can choose which one to use.


That's why I mentioned my player wants that thug/inquisitor combo which allows him to turn 4 rounds of shaken into 1 round of frightened, and how that would interact with the run around the corner, can't see enemy and such things, since its just one round basically.


You'd have to spend the whole round running away (even if you can no longer see them).

Liberty's Edge

MrCharisma wrote:
You'd have to spend the whole round running away (even if you can no longer see them).

No, you can stop as soon as you are out of sight and hearing from the creature you fear (or any danger if Panicked).

Sadly Paizo has put the relevant rules a few pages away from the conditions. I did know the rule, but I did spent more than half an hour to find it.

Conditions

CRB p. 567 wrote:
Frightened: A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape. Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.
CRB p. 568 wrote:

Panicked: A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path.

It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened.

General rules

CRB p 562 wrote:

Fear

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect, and a failed roll means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Shaken: Characters who are shaken take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).

Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than running away from the source, their paths are random.
They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.

Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

So, a Frightened creature is forced to flee, but it can take actions like a Withdraw maneuver or cast a spell to flee.

He is forced to flee from the source of his fear, but when the source is no more available, i.e. he can't see or hear it, he can stop.


Oh Em Gee!

You're blowin' my mind man!

Liberty's Edge

MrCharisma wrote:

Oh Em Gee!

You're blowin' my mind man!

Two small phrasess, hidden in a corner of the rules, and they change completly how fear works.

Shadow Lodge

Demoralize is a skill check vs a low DC, if your players invest in it at all, they will succeed every time. Expect anything that isn't immune to be shaken for a couple rounds. Demoralize stacks with any other fear effect normally, a fact which a clever group will take advantage of. If one person demoralizes and another casts fear, it's auto frightened, fail the save and be panicked.


So if that same thug/inquisitor uses the frightening ability of the thug combined with a dazzling display, would he be able to choose which opponents get hit with fear, or does he hit all of them at once with it? For example if he hits 5 goblins all with a shaken duration of 5 rounds, and he chooses that only one will be frightened, is that possible? Or when he makes that choice all of them would become frightened? Because that first way allows him to completely strip say a boss monster of all its protection from henchmen and such and leave only the boss fighting, or it allows the player to just fear 2-3 out of 5 monsters away to make the fight easier even though he could've done it to all of them. I'm not really sure how this interaction works.

Liberty's Edge

Daermoth wrote:
So if that same thug/inquisitor uses the frightening ability of the thug combined with a dazzling display, would he be able to choose which opponents get hit with fear, or does he hit all of them at once with it? For example if he hits 5 goblins all with a shaken duration of 5 rounds, and he chooses that only one will be frightened, is that possible? Or when he makes that choice all of them would become frightened? Because that first way allows him to completely strip say a boss monster of all its protection from henchmen and such and leave only the boss fighting, or it allows the player to just fear 2-3 out of 5 monsters away to make the fight easier even though he could've done it to all of them. I'm not really sure how this interaction works.
Quote:
In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round.

You choose for every single creature affected if it is shaken or frightened.

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