I was looking at making a mastermind rogue with investigator dedication. Get known weaknesses and you can potentially free action recall knowledge. Seems good.
However the more I look at devise stratagem. The less value I see from it.
Yes the pre roll and cool, but unless you have a plethora of Rider effect attacks I feel like you won't get great value from it.
You Devise stratagem. You roll high. Cool. Attack.
You Devise stratagem. You roll low. ?
As a rogue you are heavily incentivised to use melee even with mastermind. If you roll low with devise stratagem. If you don't have another enemy nearby you either eat the miss or run to the nearest target.
I find devise stratagem heavily favors a ranged weapon. And also benefits largely with having Rider effect attacks or single hit alpha strikes. Neither of these things are in a base rogues kit (and why I loved Eldritch Archer dedication with an investigator).
So, thoughts?
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It's complicated to properly use Devise a Stratagem.
First question is: Free action of one action? You will obviously use free actions Devise a Stratagem more often.
Having multiple weapons is interesting, like a high crit one (Pick) and a no crit one for normal attacks. So, if you score a natural 20 you can choose the proper weapon.
If you have multiple enemies, its use is obvious. In that case it's nearly a True Strike.
Also, remember that you can use it on subsequent attacks. If you have only one enemy, it's useless to use it on your first attack as you'll attack him anyway. But using it on your last attack (if it's a free action) may allow you to Raise your Shield or Stride away instead of missing.
So, no, you don't necessarily need a ranged weapon to use it. But you need an alternate action.
It's complicated to properly use Devise a Stratagem.
First question is: Free action of one action? You will obviously use free actions Devise a Stratagem more often.
Having multiple weapons is interesting, like a high crit one (Pick) and a no crit one for normal attacks. So, if you score a natural 20 you can choose the proper weapon.
If you have multiple enemies, its use is obvious. In that case it's nearly a True Strike.
Also, remember that you can use it on subsequent attacks. If you have only one enemy, it's useless to use it on your first attack as you'll attack him anyway. But using it on your last attack (if it's a free action) may allow you to Raise your Shield or Stride away instead of missing.So, no, you don't necessarily need a ranged weapon to use it. But you need an alternate action.
So you are saying use devise stratagem as a free action after your first attack? That would work when an enemy is already flat footed. As I need my sneak attack.
So you are saying use devise stratagem as a free action after your first attack? That would work when an enemy is already flat footed. As I need my sneak attack.It's complicated to properly use Devise a Stratagem.
First question is: Free action of one action? You will obviously use free actions Devise a Stratagem more often.
Having multiple weapons is interesting, like a high crit one (Pick) and a no crit one for normal attacks. So, if you score a natural 20 you can choose the proper weapon.
If you have multiple enemies, its use is obvious. In that case it's nearly a True Strike.
Also, remember that you can use it on subsequent attacks. If you have only one enemy, it's useless to use it on your first attack as you'll attack him anyway. But using it on your last attack (if it's a free action) may allow you to Raise your Shield or Stride away instead of missing.So, no, you don't necessarily need a ranged weapon to use it. But you need an alternate action.
Well, I haven't thought much about your build, I was speaking in absolute. Devise a Stratagem seems to not function well for Rogues as you can't choose easily the enemy you attack (you need it to be Flat-Footed and it's rare to have more than one enemy Flat-Footed).
Devise Stratagem - biggest advantage of this is making sure you hit with things before you strike. Like if you are using a ranged weapon for example, you have poison arrows and such. Devise stratagem, get the free recall knowledge check, and then attack with a poisoned arrow or other expensive expendable things.
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Unless you're talking about an Eldritch Archer devising stratages against the subject of their case, spells aren't usually a thing you conserve in this way. It's very rare for a spell to involve a strike, and stratagem doesn't apply to general spell attack rolls, whicheck helps spells to be a good thing to do instead of striking when the roll on the stratagem is poor.
You Devise stratagem. You roll low. ?
You Devise Strategem. You roll low. You...
- attack something else.
- recall knowledge.
- move.
- use an item.
While the rogue's debilitating strikes do impose some good rider effects on a sneak attack, this might be a combination that, while functional, isn't too good for the rogue - even a mastermind rogue.
For free action Recall Knowledge, since that appears to be the end goal with Known Weaknesses, the Investigator class also has Expeditious Investigation, which gives you a free action Recall Knowledge, albeit once per 10 minutes.
The Combat Assessment Fighter feat allows you to attempt a Recall Knowledge check when you successfully hit an opponent, as well, which might synergize a bit better with Mastermind Rogue, although the Figher Dedication isn't as useful.
That's not a bad idea tbh.
You Devise stratagem. You roll low. ?You Devise Strategem. You roll low. You...
- attack something else.
- recall knowledge.
- move.
- use an item.
That it they are not next to you? I guess you have to burn a move action and hope the target doesn't have an aoo.
Recall knowledge again makes it harder as that's a second recall and they get a bonus vs it (with known weakness)
What item? Give up your turn?
If I could find attacks with a success on failure maybe. Like dragging strike.
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You Devise stratagem. You roll low. ?You Devise Strategem. You roll low. You...
- attack something else.
- recall knowledge.
- move.
- use an item.
You... don't have the Athletic Strategist feat and just Disarm, Grapple, Shove, or Trip.
You... don't have the Athletic Strategist feat and just Disarm, Grapple, Shove, or Trip.You Devise stratagem. You roll low. ?You Devise Strategem. You roll low. You...
- attack something else.
- recall knowledge.
- move.
- use an item.
I'll admit that an amusing wrinkle.
Cast a spell (innate, or from an item or dedication).
Aid your ally who can still hit.
Try intimidation.
What item? Give up your turn?
There's all sorts of things you could plan to do in advance if your Devise Stratagem fails. The worst thing you can do is go "well, I rolled a 4, that's not going to hit, so I attack them and use the 4."
Do literally anything else. Devise Stratagem was your first action? Step and Stride away. Guess what, you just cost the enemy you were standing next to an action catching up.
That's pretty good compared to some other things you could do.
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I've played with Pathbuilder a lot these last few days. For a "knight in shining armor" even the investigator worked. "Devise" gives you advance knowledge of your strike (go for something big) missing, hitting or critting. While you'll never get the 8 attacks a ranger can get (6 flurry, 1 hasted, 1 AC), you can and do have the advantage of knowing your roll and choosing your actions from there. Get access to the biggest attack you can get (power attack, grievous blow, what ever) and work from there.
But apart from the damage investigator can do, compared to the fighter they can do a lot out of combat, they've got skills, options to effectively recall knowledge, etc.
With only the dedication: Knowing your roll gives you a lot of options. Rogue... Crit: Attack. Hit: What action would suit your party best. Miss: do any other action to help you party (attack another, trip, shove, you name it. Useful: very. Will it fit all characters: No, but where it fits, it will add lots of utility, fun.
What item? Give up your turn?There's all sorts of things you could plan to do in advance if your Devise Stratagem fails. The worst thing you can do is go "well, I rolled a 4, that's not going to hit, so I attack them and use the 4."
Do literally anything else. Devise Stratagem was your first action? Step and Stride away. Guess what, you just cost the enemy you were standing next to an action catching up.
That's pretty good compared to some other things you could do.
that didnt tell me what item though
but i agree its pretty good
that didnt tell me what item though
but i agree its pretty good
Like, pick something. Potion of Healing, Acid Flask, Smoke Stick...
Whatever suits your fancy and the needs at the time.
that didnt tell me what item though
but i agree its pretty good
Like, pick something. Potion of Healing, Acid Flask, Smoke Stick...
Whatever suits your fancy and the needs at the time.
so have a bandolier, and pretty sure an acid flask would be subject to the devise stratagem no?
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so have a bandolier, and pretty sure an acid flask would be subject to the devise stratagem no?
Only if:
(A) you throw it at all(B) you throw it at that enemy
It still takes an action to draw, so if you only have one action left for whatever reason, you can pop the acid flask out of your bandolier and then do something with it next turn.
You can always throw it at yourself to get them with the splash.
so have a bandolier, and pretty sure an acid flask would be subject to the devise stratagem no?Only if:
(A) you throw it at all
(B) you throw it at that enemyIt still takes an action to draw, so if you only have one action left for whatever reason, you can pop the acid flask out of your bandolier and then do something with it next turn.
is it still an action if its in a bandolier? i guess my only interaction with the bandolier has been to utiltize tread wounds quickly without hassle.
is it still an action if its in a bandolier? i guess my only interaction with the bandolier has been to utiltize tread wounds quickly without hassle.so have a bandolier, and pretty sure an acid flask would be subject to the devise stratagem no?Only if:
(A) you throw it at all
(B) you throw it at that enemyIt still takes an action to draw, so if you only have one action left for whatever reason, you can pop the acid flask out of your bandolier and then do something with it next turn.
Only tools (like healer's tools or alchemy tools) can be used from a bandolier without using an action to draw them. Everything else costs an interact action.
Only tools (like healer's tools or alchemy tools) can be used from a bandolier without using an action to draw them. Everything else costs an interact action.is it still an action if its in a bandolier? i guess my only interaction with the bandolier has been to utiltize tread wounds quickly without hassle.so have a bandolier, and pretty sure an acid flask would be subject to the devise stratagem no?Only if:
(A) you throw it at all
(B) you throw it at that enemyIt still takes an action to draw, so if you only have one action left for whatever reason, you can pop the acid flask out of your bandolier and then do something with it next turn.
i still need to study up on this bit, if i didnt have a bandolier would it cost more actions?
is it still an action if its in a bandolier? i guess my only interaction with the bandolier has been to utiltize tread wounds quickly without hassle.
Bandoliers do not save actions when using items. They kinda-sorta do when dealing with kits,* but they do not change the number of actions that Drawn An Item requires (1) or Use An Item requires (1).
What it does change is you no longer need to spend an action removing your backpack and putting it back on again (2).
*By one, not requiring you remove your pack (covered) and two, you "draw and use" with the same action that using the kit normally uses (saving you the Draw An Item action). This savings only applies to kits!
is it still an action if its in a bandolier? i guess my only interaction with the bandolier has been to utiltize tread wounds quickly without hassle.Bandoliers do not save actions when using items. They kinda-sorta do when dealing with kits, but they do not change the number of actions that Drawn An Item requires (1) or Use An Item requires (1).
What it does change is you no longer need to spend an action removing your backpack and putting it back on again (2).
to be fair, that does save actions, in essence. so is still worthwhile i think.
to be fair, that does save actions, in essence. so is still worthwhile i think.
Oh sure, keeping potions in a bandolier is a great use of a bandolier.
to be fair, that does save actions, in essence. so is still worthwhile i think.Oh sure, keeping potions in a bandolier is a great use of a bandolier.
thanks for the discussion, appreciated. definitely seeing the value in bandoliers for everyone lol.