Hi there
I am currently working on an electronic bestiary (French only, sorry) that automatically computes statblocks. I wanted to test it out on my next game of Tyrant's Grasp, but then I tried to add some creatures and the natural attacks maths seem... off. I wanted to know if it was me that forgot some rules, or if the statblocks are indeed wrong.
The problem arises from ennemies capable of using manufactured weapons and natural attacks. As a reminder, here are the rules :
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks).
Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as Dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature’s description.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
So, I tried to reconstruct one of the ennemies*. They're a tengu with 18 in Strength, and no feats nor abilities granting them extra damage. But when I compute their attacks, I get :
"Melee +2 heavy flail +13/+8 (1d10+8/19–20) or bite +11 (1d3+6)"While on their official statblock they have :
"Melee +2 heavy flail +13/+8 (1d10+8/19–20) or bite +11 (1d3+4)"
It seems like the bite damages are calculated by adding their normal Strength modifier to their damages.
But, as I understand the rules, since they only use their bite for the second combo, they should add their Strength x1.5 (only one natural attack in this attack because of the "or", and they are not able to make another natural attack).
I tried looking for other official statblocks similar to this one. I found some, and it seems like, as long as they have at least one manufactured weapon, even if they can only make one natural attack, they only add their Strength as damage once if they only attack with their natural attacks, so 1d3+4 for our NPC. This seems consistent with the official Paizo statblocks (for exemple, the canibal )
But I found some threads (notably this one) where players tend to say the opposite, and that this NPC should use their bite at 1d3+6 damages.
Plus, it seems strange to me that your only natural weapon becomes less efficient as long as you potentially can use a manufactured weapon. If you are using a weapon in the same attack, sure, since you are less focused on your natural attack. But otherwise ? Does that mean I have to re-calculate the damages if the monster grabs a weapon that was not in their statblock ? Same thing when they are disarmed and can only rely on their unique bite attack ?
I'm kinda lost, so I need your help to figure this out @_@
Your understanding is correct, it's the stat block that erroneous. Stuff like that happens quite a lot, sadly.
The melee line also ignores the possibility of a full attack with flail and bite. It should say "Melee +2 heavy flail +13/+8 (1d10+8/19–20), bite +6 (1d3+2) or bite +11 (1d3+6)"
Thanks for your answer :)
Yeah, I agree, it's weird that they don't use the full attack. I thought maybe it was because of flavor ?