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Can someone explain to me why Disturbing Knowledge costs two actions?
I get that it's a balancing factor for the area version at Legendary Occultism. But why the single target version as well?
It's basically a weaker demoralize. At least I personally prefer my target to be Frightened 2 on a crit instead frightened 1 and confused for one round.
Demoralize also doesn't cost any skill increases (not even training!) and no 7th level skill feat. You could argue that one needs Intimidating Glare to make good use of it, but its not striclty required. And even so, that's a first level feat, not 7th.
And on top of all that disturbing Knowledge costs two actions...?
So, is there anything I'm missing here? The single target action seems terrible for 2 actions.
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Can someone explain to me why Disturbing Knowledge costs two actions?
I get that it's a balancing factor for the area version at Legendary Occultism. But why the single target version as well?
It's basically a weaker demoralize. At least I personally prefer my target to be Frightened 2 on a crit instead frightened 1 and confused for one round.
Demoralize also doesn't cost any skill increases (not even training!) and no 7th level skill feat. You could argue that one needs Intimidating Glare to make good use of it, but its not striclty required. And even so, that's a first level feat, not 7th.
And on top of all that disturbing Knowledge costs two actions...?
So, is there anything I'm missing here? The single target action seems terrible for 2 actions.
This feat is way out of line. Confused for one round without the Incapacitation tag. And at level 15 you can use it on multiple enemies.
Calling that a "weaker" Demoralize when it's comparable to Scare to Death...
The level 15 version I get.
But against a single enemy I don't see how it's worth 2 actions. Confusion is a usually a coin flip at best since the confused creature is just as likely to attack you or one of your allies.
The confusion spell also has no incapacitation trait. It is a limited resource of course but already has a 2-action worthy effect on a failed save, not only critfail. And Scare to Death doesn't kill me if I critically fail.
I will say that I don't have any experience with the confused condition in PF2 yet so maybe I am vastly underestimating it.
Confused is not a coin flip. The victim attacks the nearest creature. So, obviously, you won't use it when the nearest creature is an ally. So, one creature loses his entire round + it attacks one of his allies + is Flat-Footed + can't use Reactions.
Also, skills are not like spells. It's way easier to get a Critical Success on a skill than on a spell, especially once you get Master Proficiency or above. On skills, you can add an item bonus (in general +2-3 at these levels), you have a higher proficiency (another +2), you roll against the DC (another +2) and you can gain circumstance bonuses (Inspire Competence or One For All give you +3-4 at these levels). It's a +6-11 bonus which is close to make a Critical Success to a skill check as hard as a Failure to a spell DC.
The comparison to Confusion is actually quite good as both effects are extremely similar. The main difference being that Confusion uses a level 4 or 8 spell slot. So, you get Confusion at the very same levels you get Disturbing Knowledge and it costs you one of your highest level spell slots. I think Disturbing Knowledge is fine where it is. It may be overpowered but it's clearly not underpowered.
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You use all your actions to Strike or cast offensive cantrips, though the GM can have you use other actions to facilitate attack, such as draw a weapon, move so that a target is in reach, and so forth. Your targets are determined randomly by the GM. If you have no other viable targets, you target yourself, automatically hitting but not scoring a critical hit. If it’s impossible for you to attack or cast spells, you babble incoherently, wasting your actions.
Nothing in the confused condition says you attack the nearest creature. I think you have that confused with PF1 (pun intended).
So unless your party is greatly outnumbered, confusing an enemy is still a coinflip or even worse if you outnumber the opposition.
True, PF1 memories.
Well, it reduces the interest of the condition. It's still quite good, but it's not as good as I was reading it at first glance.
As a side note, even if you are outnumbering opposition, attacking someone in the back of the party will trigger AoOs and force the monster to use move actions. So, it may be not as good as having the monster attack another enemy, but it's clearly a strong impediment of it's fighting ability.
I still think it's in line for a level 7 skill feat. It's just not overpowered. It's quite similar to Demoralize but it's based off Intelligence. Having the ability to use a Demoralizish action on your main skill is clearly worth a high level feat.
At level 15, it gets crazy good against big number of enemies. Having a whole bunch of enemies Confused for one round is clearly a game changer.
At level 15, it gets crazy good against big number of enemies. Having a whole bunch of enemies Confused for one round is clearly a game changer.
Against a room full of people, its a potential enemy wipe.
People who saved aren't necessarily going to know their buddies just started stabbing them, weapons are going to be drawn, who knows if order can be restored...
Game changer is right.
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At level 15, it gets crazy good against big number of enemies. Having a whole bunch of enemies Confused for one round is clearly a game changer.Against a room full of people, its a potential enemy wipe.
People who saved aren't necessarily going to know their buddies just started stabbing them, weapons are going to be drawn, who knows if order can be restored...
Game changer is right.
There is no save for people in the room. You make a single Occultism roll. So, if you roll high, you will Confuse all of them. Crazy good!
There is no save for people in the room. You make a single Occultism roll. So, if you roll high, you will Confuse all of them. Crazy good!
At level 15, it gets crazy good against big number of enemies. Having a whole bunch of enemies Confused for one round is clearly a game changer.Against a room full of people, its a potential enemy wipe.
People who saved aren't necessarily going to know their buddies just started stabbing them, weapons are going to be drawn, who knows if order can be restored...
Game changer is right.
As a GM, I'm thinking that it isnt in the character of most evil NPCs to forgive random outbursts of stabbing.
My players did something similar once with Frenzy Oil on all the weapons in an armory, and I couldnt justify why the violence would stop just because some of the combatants became lucid...
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It's a GM call.
But in the case of Disturbing Knowledge, everyone knows that someone messed up with their mind and who that guy is. So, I think people will direct their next stabbing to the one who caused this mayhem.
Then, if we are dealing with really stupid creatures, it may be a bit different. But I still think they are all well aware of what caused their confusion.
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I still think the single target version should be one action.
But the area version has some potential, I suppose. I'm gaining decent int and legendary occultism for my wirch multiclass anyway so I'll probably get it at 18 or something.
Yes, the single target version is closer to a one action activity. At level 7, it's not a crazy good feat. It gets really good at level 15.
Still, Confused is a strong condition. Preventing the enemy to act as he wants is extremely potent and should not be overlooked. There are tons of situations where you'll be happy to prevent an enemy from acting on his own (guard fleeing to raise alarm, evil wizard finishing his ritual...).
It's a GM call.
But in the case of Disturbing Knowledge, everyone knows that someone messed up with their mind and who that guy is. So, I think people will direct their next stabbing to the one who caused this mayhem.
Then, if we are dealing with really stupid creatures, it may be a bit different. But I still think they are all well aware of what caused their confusion.
My player who does high level Occult stuff also loves Disappearance and Ventriloquism. He'll have a field day with this feat ;)
Its really very powerful, even at two actions. Certainly, I think it'd be massively OP at one.
I will also point out that this is a useful skill feat for any occult caster. It doesn't really compete with too many other skill feats if you've been putting your skill increases into occult and if nothing else gives you a non-spell option for de-buffing your opponents.