Battle Mystery Oracles and the Marshall archetype

[GreatGraySkwid]

As soon as I saw the Marshal archetype, I knew immediately that I wanted to get back into hitting baddies with barbarians instead of axes again, and the Battle Mystery Oracle seemed like the perfect chassis to hang that on...but there's a language ambiguity in my way.

The Marshal prerequisites are:

Marshal wrote:

trained in martial weapons and either Diplomacy or Intimidation

and while the skills are no issue, Battle Mystery Oracles have...an unusual weapon training:

Battle Mystery wrote:

Choose one weapon group that embodies your mystery. You are trained in all martial weapons of that group.

So...BMOs are "trained in martial weapons," but they are not trained in all martial weapons. Does this meet the prerequisite for Marshal, or not?

[Blave]

No, it doesn't. Nothing a general feat can't fix, though.

[GreatGraySkwid]

Blave wrote:

No, it doesn't. Nothing a general feat can't fix, though.

A statement without a citation or reasoning is not particularly helpful, unless you're a design lead.

And feat taxes are bad, mm'kay?

[Xenocrat]

GreatGraySkwid wrote:

Blave wrote:

No, it doesn't. Nothing a general feat can't fix, though.

A statement without a citation or reasoning is not particularly helpful, unless you're a design lead.

It's self evident, unless you can't read the rules, in which case you're just taking things on faith anyway and wouldn't understand the citation or reasoning. Why waste further time?

[Blave]

GreatGraySkwid wrote:

Blave wrote:

No, it doesn't. Nothing a general feat can't fix, though.

A statement without a citation or reasoning is not particularly helpful, unless you're a design lead.

And feat taxes are bad, mm'kay?

A Bard is trained in Longswords and Whips (ignoring Warror Muse here). A Rogue in Shortsword and Rapier. Would you give them access to the Marshall Archetype?

How about literally ANY character with any of the ancestry weapon familiarity feats? Those all make you proficient in some martial weapons.

But neither of those things qualifies you to become a Mashall.

[Squiggit]

"trained in martial weapons" is the phrasing used by classes like the Barbarian and options like the weapon proficiency general feat. While it's not explicitly stated, that language seems to be what they use for general proficiency rather than specific.

That said, it's not like opening up more build options for characters would somehow ruin the game, so it wouldn't be the end of the world to rule it the other way in your home games.

[LordPretzels]

I do think the two excerpts that you listed have all the info you need.

[*Quote] trained in martial weapons and either Diplomacy or Intimidation

I read this as requiring the general martial weapons proficiency. Something that lists "proficient in martial weapons".

[*Quote]Choose one weapon group that embodies your mystery. You are trained in all martial weapons of that group.

The key words here are "choose a weapon group". You are proficient in this weapon group with the subset being proficient in the martial weapons of that weapon group.

The way i see it, as raw, being proficient in a weapon group and the marial weapons of that group is not the same as being proficient in martial weapons.

If the marshal requirements were to be proficient in "a" or "any" martial weapon, the weapon group thing would most definitely qualify.The wording should be changed to either of the previous examples or state something like "must have martial weapon proficiency" to be more clear.

Although, like squiggit said I don't think this would be game breaking. As a gm id likely allow it.

[Bast L.]

Squiggit wrote:

"trained in martial weapons" is the phrasing used by classes like the Barbarian and options like the weapon proficiency general feat. While it's not explicitly stated, that language seems to be what they use for general proficiency rather than specific.

Weapon proficiency says "You become trained in all simple weapons. If you were already trained in all simple weapons, you become trained in all martial weapons. If you were already trained in all martial weapons, you become trained in one advanced weapon of your choice."

Strictly speaking, trained in martial weapons, without clarifying text of what that means, could be satisfied by something like elven weapon familiarity. The "All" text in the weapon proficiency feat suggests it was sometimes considered? I really can't find anything to back it up though.

edit: Ehh, the class text does suggest that "trained in martial weapons" means all though. Maybe they just put in the "all" text in the feat to make sure people understood, and neglected for Marshall.