I am looking to build a character for my first 2E campaign. As a forever GM it has been quite a while since I was a player and I have never actually played 2E (running a game at the moment)
I am joining an Edgewatch game soon where there will be 6 players. Potential characters I know of are:
- Forensic Medicine Investigator
- Ancestors Oracle (Orc so some strength there)
- Toxicologist Alchemist
- Wit Swashbuckler (which would have been my first instinct). But good potential synergy with "Bon Mot" and Feinting
I was drawn to the rogue from the initial release as I quite like skill feats and the increases as well.
I am steering clear of Ruffian as it feels too close to the line for Edgewatch and I personally dislike the "Thief" (can't stand the name as a sub class don't get why a thief of all people should be the one exception to the dex to damage but that is a different discussion)
I am looking at wheeling out an old character who was a swashbuckler - a bit of a boasting Gilderoy Lockhart type. Yet to work out exactly how he winds up at the Edgewatch and how he will fit a more Lawful campaign but it is main part I am interested in right now
I would like some advice on the early part of the build. Notably:
Level 1: I am thinking Human but unsure on Ancestry feat
I want to go Overextending Feint to improve my option with the Feint.
Other feat options are :
Nimble Dodge
Tumble Behind
Canny Acumen
I can get two of those by going for the extra class feat and versatile human. Patching up fortitude seems like a good call.
Or would picking another heritage for the vision upgrade be a better call?
And should I go for the second class feat? And if so, which? I quite like the dodge as it gives me a reaction to use that I don't normally have...
Have I missed anything obvious?
Level 2: Choice seems to be between Distracting Feint and Swashbuckler (Fencer) dedication.
The former gives extra to the feint, stacks with ally Bon Mot and could lead to better success changes on feints. (Not sure if my group will get much out of the Reflex penalty as currently set up)
The latter gives two more skills and the ability to gain panache from my main trick. In this form it would be +5 feet speed and +1 to tumble and (more importantly) feint.
So it seems like a tricky choice. I will admit I haven't looked further ahead as to whether unlocking later swashbuckler stuff is an added benefit because lots of the rogue stuff seems good
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What do people think?
I would appreciate any advice or tips :-)
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I would say Distracting Feint is a must-have only if any PC is interested in Tripping (if that Swashbuckler were a Gymanst for instance).
My idea for a scoumdrel has been to leave DEX at 10, boost CHA to 18 and STR to 14. Take the Armor Proficiency (Human) and the Sentinel Archetype for AC. Focus on supporting your party members with Demoralize, Bon Mot, and Feint.
Honestly the ruffian fits pretty well with old timey type police forces. The guy who knows the streets and the streets know he is a hard dude not to be trifled with.
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Level 2: Choice seems to be between Distracting Feint and Swashbuckler (Fencer) dedication.
Unlike you, I like the Thief racket and that's what I'm going with for Edgewatch (playing a Forensic Pathologist). I don't care what they name the racket, it's how you play it.
You mention Swashbuckler dedication.
I would suggest you also look at the new "Duelist Dedication". Might not do what you want, but it might do the trick in place of Swashbuckler.
It gives you Quickdraw (whip out that sword!) as part of the dedication.
Easier access to the dueling feats since you don't have to take them at half your effective level (8th level slot for a 4th level feat).
For my Edgewatch guy, I went with Dedication/Quickdraw (2), Dueling Parry (4), Dueling Dance (14) and the rest are Rogue feats. If you want there's some nice riposte feats (Dueling Riposte-10. Improved Dueling Riposte-14 and Selfless Parry-8).
I thought about using the rapier, BUT as I'm a medical doctor and pathologist, being Human, I took Unconventional Weaponry (Kukri) and I'm going to use that as my one-handed weapon. I could pretty much get the same "mechanical" effect with a Shortsword (no feat needed), but I really like the idea of having a kukri.
Have fun!
Perhaps it isn’t the name but more the mechanical benefit not aligning with the name in my view. Although their jars a little from all the people who just call rogues that by default! And then play it as taking everything that isn’t nailed down
It turns out my game is now offering free archetype so that kind of remove my dilemma. Although I spotted Dandy and getting three expert skills at level 2 by getting 2 from that feat seems rather useful. But I still think I will go swashbuckler
I am kind of concerned about feinting being a bit tough at early levels but flanking will still be possible. Makes the tumbling fest another dilemma choice but I think I will stick
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Perhaps it isn’t the name but more the mechanical benefit not aligning with the name in my view. Although their jars a little from all the people who just call rogues that by default! And then play it as taking everything that isn’t nailed down
It turns out my game is now offering free archetype so that kind of remove my dilemma. Although I spotted Dandy and getting three expert skills at level 2 by getting 2 from that feat seems rather useful. But I still think I will go swashbuckler
I am kind of concerned about feinting being a bit tough at early levels but flanking will still be possible. Makes the tumbling fest another dilemma choice but I think I will stick
Consider Gang Up at L6. If you're part of a group, it's a relatively painless way to get your sneak attack. I also like Slystriker at L8, for those times you can't get an enemy flat-footed, but if you're going to go the feinting route, you might skip this assuming you'll be able to feint.
I try not to get hung up on names and fluff text. I visualize my character concept then cherry pick whatever mechanics allow me to bring the visualization to life.
My Forensic Pathologist (i.e. a Police Surgeon) does a lot of cutting, knows Medicine and Anatomy, etc., so Dex to damage seems to fit him. He is by no means a "thief" or even a "rogue". He has thievery and is very good at it, uses it for the CSI stuff - disarm traps/bombs, open locked doors and container pursuant to an investigation, etc. To support his CSI functions, he has crafting and eventually alchemy (actually taking the Alchemist dedication at 9th level). All his skill feats are related to lore, craft, medicine and Society from L1 to L12, and from L13 to L20 they're about 50/50. He's more of an academic in some ways, so doesn't really have the Acrobatics and Athletics skill feats (like Steady Balance, Cat Fall, etc.), though he does have the skills.
I didn't want a traditional Rapier guy, and since he's an MD (not a combatant in his mind), I gave him a Kukri as it gives him character (the funny knife) and since being a doctor he's most used to small cutting implements (if you can call a kukri "small") rather than large pointy swords.
So my advice is visualize your character and build him to meet that visualization... which it sounds like you're doing.
Have fun!
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'Thief' is the original name for the Rogue class and was used through the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s (It was renamed 'Rogue' when D&D3.0 launched in the late 1990s), so using it for what is essentially the 'racket for rogues who don't fit in the other rackets' is somewhat appropriate.
There presumably is a better name option out there somewhere, but I can't think of one off that top of my head...
Yeah I probably shouldn’t have added my musings on the naming and abilities of the other rackets as that isn’t what I really wanted discussion on
More the actual racket and build I have chosen
I guess I was just trying to pre-empt the “why not play x instead”
I would like to play a scoundrel but am unsure of some of the best choices. My latest dilemma is whether +4 fort (12 con and trained ) is too low and I should go versatile human to get canny acumen. Or whether I can get away with this and go for a versatile heritage instead
I thing Agents of Edgewatch, with its focus on noncombat resolution, is a great place for a Scoundrel rogue. Diplomacy is going to be front and center!
I would advise you to pump STR as high as you can afford, because sooner or later you’re gonna have to stab somebody, and even if you can demoralize and set up flanks and all of that, you will want some STR backing up your hits. Sneak Attack feels better when you do more damage than the fighter. It doesn’t feel as good when you juuust barely catch up with the fighter, know what I mean?
A while ago another poster, I forget who, indicated that in a party of 6 their scoundrel got more mileage out of just flanking and they didn’t need to use demoralize to set up flat footed. Spend an action to get into flanking vs spend an action to maybe demoralize...? They found flanking to be easier and more reliable. My Age of Ashes campaign has 6 players and a scoundrel Rogue who also no longer intimidates, but enjoys the RP aspect of being high CHA.
So, at least consider going Thief that has a 16 CHA. You can flavor it as extensive training in de-escalation... keeping away from threats and disarming...
Just a thought.
Yeah I was musing on the thief thing with the charisma focus as my current build has 16 Cha anyway.
And I don't have the stats to really make all the skills (11 in total) fully worthwhile. I take all the dex and charisma ones plus athletics and the rest kind of become filler it seems
I was currently looking at 12,18,12,10,10,16
Which could come from a thief. I miss out on the level 2 scoundrel feint feat which I was on the fence about and the buffed up feinting from the racket. In exchange for 3 extra damage per hit. Unsure of that trade off
(I appreciate the level 10 debilitation feat is better for thief but that is such a long way away)
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Yeah I was musing on the thief thing with the charisma focus as my current build has 16 Cha anyway.
And I don't have the stats to really make all the skills (11 in total) fully worthwhile. I take all the dex and charisma ones plus athletics and the rest kind of become filler it seems
I was currently looking at 12,18,12,10,10,16
Which could come from a thief. I miss out on the level 2 scoundrel feint feat which I was on the fence about and the buffed up feinting from the racket. In exchange for 3 extra damage per hit. Unsure of that trade off
(I appreciate the level 10 debilitation feat is better for thief but that is such a long way away)
Thief is good b/c SAD, but I'd put the extra boost into WIS instead of STR.
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I can recommend:
ST 10
DX 16
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 18
Using Scoundrel Racket, this prioritizes your Charisma skills first, followed by your finesse and AC, followed by your saving throw abilities. You don't need ST because you rely on sneak attack for damage, and you don't need INT because you have 12 skills as a baseline.
You can decide later about Distracting Feint based on whether, after playing some games, you think it would be of some benefit to your party (ex. If someone uses Taze regularly, for example).
Good luck!
Scoundrel's can be awesome. If you are a human, boost strength, dexterity, constitution, and charisma. I'd go something like:
Str: 14, Dx: 16, Con: 12, Int: 10, Wis 10, Cha:16
You could make Dx 18 instead of Str 14 if you want better to hit vs. damage + athletics.
With 14 strength you can take a monk archetype at 2nd, get a stance, and take flurry of blows at 8th. Or as a human you can wait till 9th and take monk using the human ancestry feat. With flurry of blows, run up to your foe, y feint, and get 2 attacks, or if your foe ran up to you, you can feint, get 2 attacks, and run away or otherwise do something defensive.
A good stance for this character would be stumbling stance.
Turns out I misread the strength requirement for leather armour. Thought it was 12. I don’t like the idea of adding nothing to damage if I stay scoundrel but the boost is probably better on will and perception
I was looking at swashbuckler multiclass for the free archetype double down on boost from feinting and at level 4 getting the finisher for another 1d6
So I have played a couple of sessions and am tempted into a rethink on my original Scoundrel stance.
The GM is allowing PFS rules of a "flexible first level".
What I have found is that in a party of 6 flanking is quite easy. Feinting has proven difficult to pull off at times and even when I give the enemy the extended flat footed someone will open up a flank or trip them which makes it a bit of a waste
The Swashbuckler switched to Gymnast and has been doing trips. That also overlaps with the alternate feint debuff from the first level APG feat (-2 attack) as trip applies both that an Flat footed.
Then there is a point brought up on the 2E board of it being a little disheartening to use sneak and only equal other damage output (due to only 12 strength).
So my options are:
1. Switch to thief still with the 18 Dex and 16 Cha and trying feinting (but also potentially Intimidate) and adding on Swashbuckler dedication as the "free archetype" like planned - choice between Fencer or Braggart
2. Complete switch into Ruffian with 18 Strength, 12 Dex, 14 Con and 14 Charisma. Use the initial Free archetype for Dandy to get three expert skills at Level 2 and then boost Dex at level 5 and get Braggart Swashbuckler at 6
I am leaning towards the latter.
So for Human Ruffian:
1. Nimble Dodge, You're Next (Ancestry), Intimidating Glare, Canny Acumen - Fortitude (Heritage)
2. Brutal Beating, Expert Intimidate, Lie to Me, Dandy Dedication
3. Expert Skill (Athletics or Stealth), Skill Feat, Toughness or Shield Block
4. Dread Striker, Expert Skill, Distracting Flattery (Skill), Gossip Lore (Free)
5. Expert Skill, Skill Feat, Ancestry Feat (?) Stat Boosts
(Boosts seem trickier for this Ruffian. I need Strength, Dex, Charisma and then unsure of Con or Wisdom...)
6. Gang Up (?), Expert Skill, Skill Feat, Swashbuckler (Braggart) Dedication
7. Master Intimidation, Skill Feat (potentially one of the Dandy ones), General Feat - (Toughness, Shield Block, Fleet, Incredible Initiative - these are all tricky to pick from!)
8. Opportune Backstab, Master Skill, Skill Feat, Finishing Precision (Swashbuckler).
9. Master Skill, Skill Feat, Re-train Canny Acumen, Ancestry Feat
(Multi-talented looks good but I am not sure if there is a dedication that would benefit this build at this point. Will not qualify for any that require Int or Wisdom...)
10. Vicious Debilitations, Master Skill, Skill Feat, Swashbuckler's Speed, Stat Boosts (probably leave Dex after unlocking Swashbuckler and switch to Strength, Con, Wisdom and Charisma for the remainder)
Any thoughts or tips? Any glaring oversights?
Hmm I have just realised that intimidating prowess doesn’t stack with the bonus to intimidate from braggart panache which is probably a flaw in the plan as it reduces the usefulness of that dedication to just granting a movement bonus
Might change my plans