For a multitude of reasons I've been really hyped for the APG, among those reasons being Tieflings, new class feats, and so many new archetypes. And from the archetypes, I've been especially looking forward to Dragon Disciple. But as I look at it I can't help but feel that it's... a little underwhelming for Sorcerers.
The dedication gives you scaling energy resistance and +1 against sleep/paralysis, which isn't bad mind you but doesn't really scale (heh) all that well.
Then there's the level 4 feats. The scent feat is.... really unremarkable, especially since some heritages can get that innately. The claws don't really stand out in my opinion; you get 1d6 claws normally, but now your Dragon Claw focus power is basically just for the additional energy damage and resistance against the same. And since the energy resistance is based on your Blood Magic effect, it's unreliable unless you spam bloodline spells. But even these at least give you something; the Dragon Arcana feat is literally 100% redundant for Sorcerers.
Scales of the Dragon actually seems pretty good, giving Sorcerers a bit of extra defense and improving your energy resistance. But if you want to make frequent use of your Dragon Claws, suddenly investing in DEX isn't as efficient, because the scales have a DEX cap. But investing in STR doesn't do a lot for you either.
The rest of the feats aren't really good or bad, largely being delayed versions of your focus power feats and just giving more options. The free breath attack is pretty cool (and 9d6 compared to 12d6 isn't that big a drop for such a boon), and the Dragon Form feats are well... You turn into a dragon. That's always going to be cool.
But even starting at level 4, you're comparing them to some strong contenders. Arcane Evolution lets you mix a bit of Wizard versatility and sets up a later feat. Elaborate Flourish and Split Shot are circumstantial, but really flavorful and "Sorcerer"-esque. And the comparisons just keep coming as your level gets higher; Spell Relay (which seems amazing with any other caster, as it doesn't matter what your casting tradition or spell repertoire has, setting up really cool team plays with you and another caster), Safeguarded Spell, Ancestral Mage, Energy Fusion, Energy Ward, Consume Spell.... the list goes on and on.
Having been disappointed with the scarcity of unique feats Sorcerers got in the CRB, I was absolutely ecstatic to see that they got so many new and flavorful feats with which to really live up to their "inborn magic caster" theme. But in comparison to those feats, Dragon Disciple just... doesn't really feel like it stands up in comparison. And honestly? I do not want to be right about this. So I'm really, sincerely hoping that someone can convince me otherwise.
Is there something I'm missing? Is my brain to small and smooth to understand the prowess that a Dragon Disciple Sorcerer brings to the table? Is a Sorcerer tapping deeper into the wells of their ancestral prowess a theme mechanically powerful enough that it lives up to the grandeur? Because right now it feels like Dragon Disciple is good for Kobolds and Barbarians, but Sorcerers are.... more or less better off without it.
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I agree that Dragon Disciple isn't a super-good choice for Draconic Sorcerers. But where it gets interesting is when you have a non-Draconic Bloodline sorcerer. A Dragonscale/Spellscale kobold sorcerer that casts off of the divine, occult, or primal list suddenly finds the Dragon Arcana feat to be a decent pick.
It isn't great for dragon instinct barbarians either, really.
The scales seem worse than just using armor. The claws suffer from the fact that paizo makes EVERY claw finesse/agile, which makes them a poor choice for rage. You could grab wings at level 12 anyway, and your version of dragon shape is objectively better (since a martial's stats are usually better than the spell's scaling bonuses)
The breath might be useful if you want to double up on AoE options, i suppose.
Kobolds are the only ones that seem to get much out of this archetype, really.
I was asking people to refute my opinions, not confirm them ;^;
This is making me sad. Especially since I actually love the RP blurb they gave for the Dragon Disciple. It stuck out to me as prime roleplay opportunity. And yet the mechanics of the class itself just... don't really seem to live up.
The 1e Dragon Disciple was cool and really strong. It built on and improved your bloodline powers at the cost of your spellcasting, which you were able to get back with proper feat investment anyhow. I get that they're not doing that sort of "PF1e-ism" anymore where certain class selections will get you benefits earlier, but it does feel like Dragon Disciple could have done more to build on the innate abilities of the Draconic Sorcerer. And it just... well, it doesn't.
With the great baseline feats Sorcerers get from the APG, I just can't really justify going Dragon Disciple over pure Sorcerer, or hell maybe even another archetype instead. It might be way too early to say given I doubt many people have had a chance to really build and play a Dragon Disciple, but I guess first impressions aren't that great.
Maybe errata can improve it...?
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The scent is a great option; some ancestries already having access to it doesnt change the fact that it's useful if you arent that ancestry.
The damage die up on the dragon claws focus spell is decent as well, but more importantly I think that the energy resistance shouldnt be ignored. In some scenarios it could be life saving..
A lot of these archetypes are niche and situational, and I think that's okay. At the end of the day it's just another line of feats available and shouldnt make or break your build regardless.
Kobolds using the divine list are probably the ones profiting the most from dragon disciple.
I was thinking about using it on a kobold cosmos oracle since they dont get great spells from divine access.But yeah i was a bit disappointed with dragon disciple as well. Until the APG i wasnt really sold on archetypes since so many give you very little when you take them and are kind of a "pick a weak feat to get access to good feats later" situation which looks cool on paper but feels bad in play. But so many archetypes in the apg give you good stuff immediatly like medic, blessed, dual wielder, beastmaster, bastion, acrobat,...
Disciple again gives you pretty weak and or boring bonuses when you take it.
And personally i dont know why dragon barbarians even get access because they dont get anything good from it.The scales could be cool, but for some reason give you horrible armor. 2 with a dex cap of 2? Would you even want that as a caster?
I dont know who would want the claws. If they were d8 maybe.
The scales use your unarmored proficiency. So in essence it's like getting a slightly worse chain shirt, without any bulk or STR requirement. And you can still get bonuses from things like runes on your clothing.
In theory it means that as a Sorcerer you don't need to make DEX as high a priority; even with just a 14 in DEX, you can still get an AC of 20 by level four. That means you can invest in other stats if you prefer.
But the problem is your claws are finesse, meaning they use your STR or your DEX to hit. If you actually want to use them regularly you need to invest in one of the two, and your DEX gives more bang for your buck (Acrobatics, Stealth, & Reflex saves vs Melee damage & Athletics). So if you choose to take the scales, you're making investing in your DEX less efficient than it would normally be. So the feat largely becomes... You get a slight increase to your scaling energy resistance.
On paper it's a good feat and it's also really cool, but if you think about it in tandem with everything else it just starts looking better to invest in DEX and maybe Mage Armor.
Kobolds using the divine list are probably the ones profiting the most from dragon disciple.
I was thinking about using it on a kobold cosmos oracle since they dont get great spells from divine access.
Coincidently I've build a cosomos oracle as npc for an campaign I am running. Looks really good so far.
About the dragon disciple
I mean, it may not be the biggest baddest archetype around but it is pretty solid, even for sorcerers
the resistance from the dedication is certainly a nice thing to have (and in case of a dragonscaled kobold can stacks nicely) if you have a dominant damage type in a campaign you will always be happy about that
claws are nice - a solid weapon that cant be disarmed and a little powerup to the sorcerers spell, which increases the resistance even further
summed up (with kobold of equivalent scales) you can have an elemental resistance of 40 - that ought to ruin someones days
if you are not big in investing in armor the scales are also kind of nice
I agree that the +4 overall armor isnt overwhelming and they don't go especially well with claws, but it can still be useful
scent is awesome, an additional sense to pick up a lot of potential information - admittedly how awesome it is depends a little on the gamemaster
dragon arcana gives a nice choice of spells
shield, true strike and haste would probably be worth the feat already, everything else is just a nice little bonus, awesome feat for non-arcane spellcasters
wings of the dragon and breath of the dragon are also nice for every non-sorcerer, they only come online 2 levels later then for the sorcerer and are (imo) among the best focus spells
disciples breath is just awesome - elemental breathing all the day
of course it is not nearly as strong as the spell but you basically got a level 5 focus spell at will
So while a few feats double for the sorcerer and a few of the feats are not optimum it delivers a lot of additional firepower - admittedly especially to our little kobold friends
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Kobolds using the divine list are probably the ones profiting the most from dragon disciple.
I was thinking about using it on a kobold cosmos oracle since they dont get great spells from divine access.Coincidently I've build a cosomos oracle as npc for an campaign I am running. Looks really good so far.
About the dragon disciple
I mean, it may not be the biggest baddest archetype around but it is pretty solid, even for sorcerers
the resistance from the dedication is certainly a nice thing to have (and in case of a dragonscaled kobold can stacks nicely) if you have a dominant damage type in a campaign you will always be happy about that
claws are nice - a solid weapon that cant be disarmed and a little powerup to the sorcerers spell, which increases the resistance even further
summed up (with kobold of equivalent scales) you can have an elemental resistance of 40 - that ought to ruin someones daysif you are not big in investing in armor the scales are also kind of nice
I agree that the +4 overall armor isnt overwhelming and they don't go especially well with claws, but it can still be usefulscent is awesome, an additional sense to pick up a lot of potential information - admittedly how awesome it is depends a little on the gamemaster
dragon arcana gives a nice choice of spells
shield, true strike and haste would probably be worth the feat already, everything else is just a nice little bonus, awesome feat for non-arcane spellcasterswings of the dragon and breath of the dragon are also nice for every non-sorcerer, they only come online 2 levels later then for the sorcerer and are (imo) among the best focus spells
disciples breath is just awesome - elemental breathing all the day
of course it is not nearly as strong as the spell but you basically got a level 5 focus spell at willSo while a few feats double for the sorcerer and a few of the feats are not optimum it delivers a lot of additional firepower - admittedly especially to our little...
Important thing: multiple sources of energy resistance- to my knowledge- do not stack. If they do, I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong, but otherwise? Players only benefit from the highest amount.
Secondly, I'm glad that Kobolds benefit from this archetype. Really, I am. Nothing against them. But for the Sorcerer specifically the archetype is just... very underwhelming in comparison to its PF1e version, where your bloodline powers not only came online faster but also got buffed once you reached the level you'd unlock them as Sorcerer.
This is especially on account of the Dragon Disciple archetype being drastically more restricted compared to the prior edition, where anyone with sufficient arcane casting and the Draconic language could start dipping into it. And yet with that tightened restriction comes... really very little for the one casting class you'd think it would be designed to complement. I mean hell, Dragon Arcana is quite literally a dead feat for Sorcerers! You'd think it could do something for them, but... nope.
It just feels like Dragon Disciple is lacking in the fantasy for a more physical Draconic caster, and that sucks because I was really looking forward to it.
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Yes, dragon disciple is underwhelming. Especially if you don't houserule at all. It's basically only worthwhile for divine or primal casters who can pick up Dragon Arcana.
Battle forms are weak, and last only 1 minute. Scales are just a boost to battle form. Claws aren't really amazing for anything, since they're just another weapon. Scent is situational, and not even particularly dragony, would have preferred a frightful presence type ability. Wings are okay, if you don't have flight from somewhere else.
What's missing from PF1:
1. Improved survivability with natural AC and better hit dice
2. Ability boosts
3. Enhanced bloodline access
4. Permanent wings
5. Bite (the actual attack best associated with dragons)
Yes, dragon disciple is underwhelming. Especially if you don't houserule at all. It's basically only worthwhile for divine or primal casters who can pick up Dragon Arcana.
Battle forms are weak, and last only 1 minute. Scales are just a boost to battle form. Claws aren't really amazing for anything, since they're just another weapon. Scent is situational, and not even particularly dragony, would have preferred a frightful presence type ability. Wings are okay, if you don't have flight from somewhere else.
What's missing from PF1:
1. Improved survivability with natural AC and better hit dice2. Ability boosts
3. Enhanced bloodline access
4. Permanent wings
5. Bite (the actual attack best associated with dragons)
Isn't most of this true of the draconic sorcerer as well? Like they don't get the permanent AC boost anymore, or permanent wings. That stuff just seems valued differently in PF2.
Anyway, I agree it isn't an amazing choice for your average draconic sorcerer. But I don't think it was in PF1 either. I think it occupies about the same niche as before-- trying to make a fragile class into an all right melee combatant. (This is also heavily implied by the iconic art.)
1) Higher damage dice on claws and more room for strength means higher damage.
2) The draconic spell list really lends itself to gishing. True Strike, haste, shield, mask of terror... Even stuff like Resist Energy and Spell Immunity have their place on the Frontline.
3) Coincidentally, this lends itself to having the blood magic going more often than not.
4) Extra energy resistance and circumstance bonuses to saves are niche but don't hurt.
It seems viable. More so if your GM let's you use bespell weapon. But I don't think you're meant to use it on your average squishy 10 strength caster. This is for a beefy boi, probably an orc or a dwarf.
Dragon disciple is definitely in a wierd place. There's only a feat or two that benefits very specific classes, and the rest are very underwhelming.
Dragon scales seems to be meant for shapeshifting, so is really only good for druids. Barbarians that shift can use their own AC, which would be higher without it, and other casters aren't good enough/can't be in dragon form often enough to justify it, because their AC would also be higher without dragon scales.
The breath weapon is another wierd one as it doesn't give any indication of what you use to cast it. If we assume that it's an arcane sorcerer focus spell, that means for most classes it's not going to work. It would only work for imperial and geniekin sorcerers, really. If your table is lenient they might let the breath scale from your spell or class dc, whichever is higher, and then it makes the feat(s) great, but until then it's a wierd one.
Claws and scent are pretty bland I agree. Adding spells to a spell list is pretty good in some cases, I could see that being a good reason to take the dedication. Wings is also pretty cool, especially for martials that would otherwise not be able to fly. And the form spells are a pretty cool bonus, just not castable often enough that it's always available to use.
At first I thought that if you were a sorcerer, you had to take the Draconic bloodline, but you can get away with just being a kobold. That's good to know.
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You can also just take the Dedication, with the blessing of your GM. Access requirements aren't prerequisites.
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You can also just take the Dedication, with the blessing of your GM. Access requirements aren't prerequisites.
Oh dang. Good catch. That definitely broadens the conversation.
You can also just take the Dedication, with the blessing of your GM. Access requirements aren't prerequisites.Where do you get this? I'm not seeing where it actually talks about what "access" means for archetypes.
That's been defined in prior books. I believe the Lost Omens Character Guide? Yeah, page 5.
The APG probably restates that somewhere, but not sure where precisely.
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You can also just take the Dedication, with the blessing of your GM. Access requirements aren't prerequisites.Where do you get this? I'm not seeing where it actually talks about what "access" means for archetypes.
Access is discussed in the Rarity rules. It means that, as an Uncommon option, it requires GM approval without the Access requirement. But many things in the game are Uncommon with no listed access and thus still exist and can be acquired, you just need to talk with your GM about how to achieve it.
Prerequisites, on the other hand, you need a House Rule to get around. It's a subtle difference, but a relevant one in many games.
Without those access requirements as prerequisites, Dragon Disciple becomes a whole lot more usable for a variety of builds. Unfortunately, most of those are dragon clerics/druids.
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I think that wording also implies multiclass characters would qualify... Though you'd need to satisfy your initial dedication which would push taking these back to at least 8th level.
Still, I can see there being some neat things to do with a monk. At 1d6 slashing and 1d6 elemental, you're actually hitting for damage comparable to a d12 weapon. Doing that on an agile finesse weapon is pretty cool.
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As a note that I didn't see anyone else mention (I think), The scales give a status bonus to AC which allows the wearing of armor or Mage Armor to stack.
The bonus applies when unarmored. It should be compatible with Mage Armor, Bracers of Armor, and enchanted Explorer's Clothing. It should not be compatible with actual armor.
Does a draconic sorcerer dedication qualify for access?
So generally speaking, it seems I'm not the only one underwhelmed by what the Dragon Disciple archetype has to offer Draconic Sorcerers.
It's disappointing, but at least Sorcerers get a lot more flavorful options when it comes to feats. I wish they got Nonlethal Spell like Wizards though, but I understand why ;^;
I personally think dragon disciple is best used for a kabold dragon instinct barbarian. Set yourself up with 3 seperate breath weapons each combat. Rediculous on demand aoe damage on a martial. But yea overall a little lacking for sorcerers.
Again, you don't use the dragon disciple for a normal sorcerer, and didn't in PF1 either. You build it to gish, and it offers a fair amount there.
I mean, I like dragons too and wish I could later all the dragon stuff on the same character and have it be optimal, but that's not the intent of the archetype.
I'm looking at this, specifically the scales and claws... Am I the only one who wants to see a kobold alchemist focusing on mutagens (Drakeheart) and using the dragon disciple archetype?
But yeah, it does seem underwhelming for the sorcerer. Except for the much later feats, most of this is redundant. That doesn't stop you from taking just the dedication and high level shape feats and using the cool new sorcerer feats in between, though.
Again, you don't use the dragon disciple for a normal sorcerer, and didn't in PF1 either. You build it to gish, and it offers a fair amount there.
I mean, I like dragons too and wish I could later all the dragon stuff on the same character and have it be optimal, but that's not the intent of the archetype.
I follow that, but on paper it just... doesn't feel good. And this is from someone who really liked Dragon Disciple in PF1e and the idea of a gish Sorcerer.
The claws? Yes, great, you get constant claw attacks that can never be disarmed barring dismemberment. But it feels underwhelming for Sorcerer because it makes Dragon Claws feel, dare I say it, redundant. Until 18th-level their effects can basically be replicated with the proper elemental weapon/armor runes. Runes that only need to be bought and are active constantly, rather than spending a Focus Point and getting those effects for one minute. Keeping in mind the energy resistance is only active during the round you've cast a bloodline spell.
The scales? Again, great in theory. You can leave yourself at +2 DEX or otherwise make it a less important stat, letting you focus on your STR. But it's not like you get bulwark; you still need to up your DEX to use for Reflex, you'll need Acrobatics to fly, etc. So you still end up having to invest into DEX. Along with CHA, for your spells. And WIS, for your Perception and Will. And CON, for your HP and Fortitude.
Dragon Disciple in 1e didn't just allow you to make a gish Sorcerer; it complemented and empowered your Draconic bloodline. A bite attack along with your claws, faster flight speed with your wings, a stronger/more frequent breath attack; 1e DD gave all of these things, just as examples.
2e... doesn't. Maybe it was intended to as it was being designed, but really the majority of what it does is either replicate Sorcerer focus powers for other classes to use, or render them redundant for the Sorcerer. It doesn't actually add or do much to actually complement the class, and that leaves it underwhelming.
But on the flipside I can understand the possible reasoning as to why it was written like this. It's an option, rather than "if you're going Draconic Sorcerer, take this or you're actively impeding yourself". It's something for people to invest into for more flavor, to really go the extra mile for their Draconic theme and prowess. Not raw mechanical power that's as mandatory as STR is for a Barbarian.
I just wish it was more satisfying for a Sorcerer, because the flavor and RP potential really speaks to me. True, totally could do what JackieLane suggests, just taking the Dedication and later high level feats, but... I guess that just feels "cheap" somehow?