Investigator has "Devise a Stratagem" ability to roll a dice to be used for a Strike later in the round.
Relevant part of the text: "If you Strike the chosen creature later this round, you must use the result of this roll..."
Can this be used only for "vanilla" Strikes, when the action you are making is "[1 action] Strike", or is it also possible to use them on Strikes made within a different action, such as Power Attack that specifies "Make a melee Strike.".
Will it use "Devise a Stratagem"? I mean, I can see advantages and disadvantages in both interpretations, so I can't really use "less powerful" route.
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Devise a Stratagem says "if you Strike"
Power attack says "Make a melee Strike".
Sounds to me like you made a Strike.
But there is also the rule on Subordinate Actions in an activity that says using an activity is not the same as using an action included to it. The rule even gives the following close example:
As another example, if you used an action that specified, “If the next action you use is a Strike,” an activity that includes a Strike wouldn’t count, because the next thing you are doing is starting an activity, not using the Strike basic action.
Let's look at other effects. Inspire Courage modify attack rolls, not Strikes directly, so they also work with stuff like Power Attack. Faster movement gives a bonus to movement speed, it doesn't modify the Stride action directly - that way it's clear it also affects stuff like Sudden Charge.
Devise A Stratagem directly modifies the Strike action. So I think it only applies to a simple Strike.
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But there is also the rule on Subordinate Actions in an activity that says using an activity is not the same as using an action included to it. The rule even gives the following close example:
As another example, if you used an action that specified, “If the next action you use is a Strike,” an activity that includes a Strike wouldn’t count, because the next thing you are doing is starting an activity, not using the Strike basic action.Let's look at other effects. Inspire Courage modify attack rolls, not Strikes directly, so they also work with stuff like Power Attack. Faster movement gives a bonus to movement speed, it doesn't modify the Stride action directly - that way it's clear it also affects stuff like Sudden Charge.
Devise A Stratagem directly modifies the Strike action. So I think it only applies to a simple Strike.
While the part on Subordinate Actions is absolutely true, I don't think it actually applies in the case of Devise A Stratagem due to its particular wording.
Choose a creature you can see and roll a D20. If you Strike the chosen creature later this round...
It lacks the verbiage needed to meet the subordinate exception, merely replacing the roll of the Strike regardless of where that strike came from.
In general, they use either the formula "Strike" or "Strike action" if they want to speak about the subaction or the activity.
In that case, it doesn't speak of "Strike action" so I'd say it works for Power Attack.
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But there is also the rule on Subordinate Actions in an activity that says using an activity is not the same as using an action included to it. The rule even gives the following close example:
As another example, if you used an action that specified, “If the next action you use is a Strike,” an activity that includes a Strike wouldn’t count, because the next thing you are doing is starting an activity, not using the Strike basic action.Let's look at other effects. Inspire Courage modify attack rolls, not Strikes directly, so they also work with stuff like Power Attack. Faster movement gives a bonus to movement speed, it doesn't modify the Stride action directly - that way it's clear it also affects stuff like Sudden Charge.
Devise A Stratagem directly modifies the Strike action. So I think it only applies to a simple Strike.
That argument might work if Devise a Stratagem said "if the next action you take is a Strike...", but it doesn't say that.
In general, they use either the formula "Strike" or "Strike action" if they want to speak about the subaction or the activity.
In that case, it doesn't speak of "Strike action" so I'd say it works for Power Attack.
So we still have [Attack] Action and [Attack Action] issues?
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So we still have [Attack] Action and [Attack Action] issues?In general, they use either the formula "Strike" or "Strike action" if they want to speak about the subaction or the activity.
In that case, it doesn't speak of "Strike action" so I'd say it works for Power Attack.
No, we instead have people worrying about [Attack] Action and [Attack Action] issues due to a poorly worded sentence that is supposed to mean, "If an effect says make a Strike, you cannot make a Power Attack or a Sudden Charge because those aren't Strikes. Instead, they contain Strikes."
For Devise a Stratagem, the Power Attack does not trigger the substitution of the known rolled value for a fresh d20 roll, because it is not a Strike. However, the subordinate Strike inside the Power Attack does. First World Bard summed up the answer nicely. Separating Power Attack from its Strike is difficult because the nested actions have only one die roll between them, but they are distinct.
Man that’s so awesome the way it’s written.
That means trips, grapples, Demoralize are all actions you can take before making a strike to turn a hit into a critical or a miss into a hit and if you fail at either.
Unless I’m missing something. Still waiting on my copy.
Man that’s so awesome the way it’s written.
That means trips, grapples, Demoralize are all actions you can take before making a strike to turn a hit into a critical or a miss into a hit and if you fail at either.
Unless I’m missing something. Still waiting on my copy.
Yeah, from what I see from the Investigator preview, as long as you don't take the feat that allows you to make Athletics checks with the result of the Stratagem ability, you can use Grapple/Trip to apply flat-footed and turn a miss into a hit (or into a crit) if you have some knowledge of the enemies AC.
If you take the feat you can't do this anymore since "You must apply the substitution to the first eligible attack you make, whether it's a Strike or one of the Athletics actions". A little counter intuitive but understandable. Demoralize and Feint are still options for this strategy tho, even with the feat.
Man that’s so awesome the way it’s written.
That means trips, grapples, Demoralize are all actions you can take before making a strike to turn a hit into a critical or a miss into a hit and if you fail at either.
Unless I’m missing something. Still waiting on my copy.
Yeah, that's exactly how it works. The intention is to happily abuse the future sight you get by rolling early, potentially just deciding to not make a Strike at all that turn if you know the roll sucked.
Yeah, that's exactly how it works. The intention is to happily abuse the future sight you get by rolling early, potentially just deciding to not make a Strike at all that turn if you know the roll sucked.
Good. That makes their combat style much more interesting and diverse, will certainly foster the use of non-combat abilities by proxy.
If you take the feat you can't do this anymore since "You must apply the substitution to the first eligible attack you make, whether it's a Strike or one of the Athletics actions". A little counter intuitive but understandable. Demoralize and Feint are still options for this strategy tho, even with the feat.
While it is a bit strange, it does allow you to knowingly choose a good athletics check and then follow with a Strike if you've chosen that.
Outside of the requirement to boost AC, it really seems like Investigator has a solid option in choosing STR as their secondary anyways.
We'll have to see what else is connected to Devise Strategem, but I'm super excited for one of my players (using the PT version in one of my campaigns, and this will be a MAJOR improvement).
So we still have [Attack] Action and [Attack Action] issues?In general, they use either the formula "Strike" or "Strike action" if they want to speak about the subaction or the activity.
In that case, it doesn't speak of "Strike action" so I'd say it works for Power Attack.No, we instead have people worrying about [Attack] Action and [Attack Action] issues due to a poorly worded sentence that is supposed to mean, "If an effect says make a Strike, you cannot make a Power Attack or a Sudden Charge because those aren't Strikes. Instead, they contain Strikes."
For Devise a Stratagem, the Power Attack does not trigger the substitution of the known rolled value for a fresh d20 roll, because it is not a Strike. However, the subordinate Strike inside the Power Attack does. First World Bard summed up the answer nicely. Separating Power Attack from its Strike is difficult because the nested actions have only one die roll between them, but they are distinct.
I think I see it now. The rule about subactions doesn't apply here because it's not required that you take the Strike action. Any Strike made as any part of another action still counts for Devise Stratagem.
Good, makes it much more versatile.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So we still have [Attack] Action and [Attack Action] issues?In general, they use either the formula "Strike" or "Strike action" if they want to speak about the subaction or the activity.
In that case, it doesn't speak of "Strike action" so I'd say it works for Power Attack.No, we instead have people worrying about [Attack] Action and [Attack Action] issues due to a poorly worded sentence that is supposed to mean, "If an effect says make a Strike, you cannot make a Power Attack or a Sudden Charge because those aren't Strikes. Instead, they contain Strikes."
For Devise a Stratagem, the Power Attack does not trigger the substitution of the known rolled value for a fresh d20 roll, because it is not a Strike. However, the subordinate Strike inside the Power Attack does. First World Bard summed up the answer nicely. Separating Power Attack from its Strike is difficult because the nested actions have only one die roll between them, but they are distinct.
I think I see it now. The rule about subactions doesn't apply here because it's not required that you take the Strike action. Any Strike made as any part of another action still counts for Devise Stratagem.
Good, makes it much more versatile.
If it didn't work this way, that would allow things like an Investigator taking Power Attack so they can override their bad roll on Devise a Strategem, thus bypassing the "next strike" and effectively getting a reroll.
That would make it stronger, not weaker, interestingly enough.
But it does allow an Investigator to basically just go full "debuff" if they know they aren't going to land the strike on a turn (you roll a 9 total, you know your best bets are to spam demoralize, trip, grapple, feint, etc. unless you want to "eat" a miss in order to strike again).
It's such an interesting ability that changes the flow of their playstyle so much.
Logan if you're listening, Nice.
If it didn't work this way, that would allow things like an Investigator taking Power Attack so they can override their bad roll on Devise a Strategem, thus bypassing the "next strike" and effectively getting a reroll.
That would make it stronger, not weaker, interestingly enough.
But it does allow an Investigator to basically just go full "debuff" if they know they aren't going to land the strike on a turn (you roll a 9 total, you know your best bets are to spam demoralize, trip, grapple, feint, etc. unless you want to "eat" a miss in order to strike again).
It's such an interesting ability that changes the flow of their playstyle so much.
Logan if you're listening, Nice.
Yeah, it's a really nice ability! Unique and flavorful!
A nice sidenote is how Devise Stratagem works with a heavy crossbow. You only have to spend those reload actions after a successful shot. :)
Yeah, it's a really nice ability! Unique and flavorful!
A nice sidenote is how Devise Stratagem works with a heavy crossbow. You only have to spend those reload actions after a successful shot. :)
We should keep this going.
What other cool plays can you make now as an Investigator because of Devise a Stragem?
1. Trip/Grapple/Demoralize/Feint to land a hit/crit
2. Avoid a Reload on a shot you would have missed with a Crossbow
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Intimidation and Deception are going to be just shy of required skills for an investigator who wants to take full advantage of Devise a Stratagem, since they have the potential to shift the combat math without actually adding to MAP, as trip or grapple would.
Would there be any potential value in saving DaS for later in the turn, if you're moving toward "fish for 20s" at your last action? "Well, looks like I won't be hitting, so I guess I'll raise my shield instead" kind of things?
Yeah, it's a really nice ability! Unique and flavorful!
A nice sidenote is how Devise Stratagem works with a heavy crossbow. You only have to spend those reload actions after a successful shot. :)We should keep this going.
What other cool plays can you make now as an Investigator because of Devise a Stragem?
1. Trip/Grapple/Demoralize/Feint to land a hit/crit
2. Avoid a Reload on a shot you would have missed with a Crossbow
Don't waste a Focus Point on a badly rolled Hand of the Apprentice. HotA uses a Strike not a spell attack.
Edit: Also other resource using Strikes like Channel Smite.
Devise a Stratagem is kinda the mundane True Strike. Spend an action to greatly buff a next action.
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If you know you're going to miss, you can just attack someone else since it has to be a Strike against the target of the ability.
So in a sense, if there's more than one enemy it actually is basically True Strike as long as you can attack the creature even with a move in between since this would allow that too.
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It seems worth noting that you only gain the Int to attack (and the Investigator's Sneak Attack-level scaling damage bonus...though that only applies to ranged weapons or finesse or agile melee attacks) if you use the pre-roll, so how good attacking another target is will vary depending on how good your un-buffed attack is.
That said, it's still great.
Other cool stuff you can do because of Devise A Stratagem:
-Just not attack. If you have a good alternative action to attacking (Battle Medicine, Scare To Death, whatever), you can do that instead even if it's not a debuff (though debuffs are better, obviously), possibly a couple of those instead depending on circumstances.
-Move to flank an opponent. This seems obvious, but nobody has explicitly mentioned it yet. It's the big advantage a melee Investigator has over a ranged one in many ways, which seems worth noting since ranged Investigators have the real advantage of being able to do the 'alternate target' thing better.
I gotta say this single ability changes so much about how the Class will play in combat, it's almost gutsy to have gone this way with no external playtesting. I think it's brilliant and really strong, but it does create a major departure from the original combat flow of the Investigator from the playtest.
I have to wonder what people at Paizo internally tested with the class. If there were testers for the new AP, I would expect them to have encountered a lot of these scenarios.
A whole host of magical, alchemical, and mundane items.
"Oh, I'll miss? I grab a potion out of my bag instead."
If my roll looks really good I can try Disarm (which needs a crit),
Otherwise I'll just do a Trip (which only needs a success)
You'll need the Athletic Strategist feat to do that, but that's still a really nice interaction.
I do wonder about this line though, since the preview doesn't include the entirety of "Devise a Strategem", from Athletic Strategist:
... and the weapon doesn't fit the restriction for using Intelligence with Devise a Strategem
Which seems to imply that you don't have to use INT to use Devise a Strategem.
Hmm...
Which seems to imply that you don't have to use INT to use Devise a Strategem.Hmm...
You don't have to. "When you make this substitution (the dice roll), you can also add your Intelligence modifier to your attack roll instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier..."
But I believe most cases your INT will have a higher or equal modifier to STR/DEX, unless you dump INT. I believe Devise a Stratagem was created with the intent that you don't dump INT - it may be viable to dump it tho, you get more "combat" stats but have a modifier 1 lower at levels 1-4, 10-14 and 20.
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Which seems to imply that you don't have to use INT to use Devise a Strategem.
Hmm...
You don't have to.
We got the full text of Devise A Stratagem from The Slithering's pregen characters, and the pre-roll effect is actually entirely independent of what weapon you use, but the Int-bonus to hit (and the bonus damage, which is dependent on it) is restricted to specific weapons.
Technically, you can Devise A Stratagem with a greatsword, but you could not use the 'add Int instead' option with that choice, you'd have to always just use your Str. This is normally not ideal, especially given the additional damage you can get if you add Int on your to-hit, but it's possible.
Technically, you can Devise A Stratagem with a greatsword, but you could not use the 'add Int instead' option with that choice, you'd have to always just use your Str. This is normally not ideal, especially given the additional damage you can get if you add Int on your to-hit, but it's possible.
Now that was the piece I was missing.
That said, it definitely sounds possible to go STR Investigator though, because then the bonus damage is just your standard STR bonus.
Do Investigators have any armor options? Trying to do a Str/Int build sounds fun, but if you're stuck in light armor forever and trying to keep up two non-save stats it seems like you'd be really fragile.
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Now that was the piece I was missing.
Yeah, they get Sneak Attack equivalent damage that only applies if they used their Int on the attack roll, and Int-to-attack is restricted to ranged weapons or agile or finesse melee attacks.
That said, it definitely sounds possible to go STR Investigator though, because then the bonus damage is just your standard STR bonus.
You can add both if you go Str-based but with a weapon you can use Int to attack with. That's mostly d6 weapons, but not unworkable by any means, and 1d6+3+1d6 is very solid 1st level damage.
That runs into an AC issue, but apparently Sentinel makes Medium Armor Proficiency a good pick up (since it advances heavier armor at your normal rate), which fixes that issue for humans, at least.
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Do Investigators have any armor options? Trying to do a Str/Int build sounds fun, but if you're stuck in light armor forever and trying to keep up two non-save stats it seems like you'd be really fragile.
It doesn't sound like it, but it does sound like the Sentinel Archetype is basically designed to fix this problem and only requires Medium Armor Proficiency as a prerequisite, so this issue seems solved by 4th level at the latest, and not to be a problem at all for humans if they're willing to invest a General Feat and a Class Feat.
Oh, only d6 weapons? Guess it's a bridge too far to expect PF2 to cut back on the "you're not allowed to do that" design principles.
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Oh, only d6 weapons? Guess it's a bridge too far to expect PF2 to cut back on the "you're not allowed to do that" design principles.
Devise A Stratagem works with any weapon. The Int on to-hit and bonus damage has weapon limitations.
And, actually, there are several ways to get to d8 (it works with longbows, curveblades and, with a Feat, all simple bludgeons which you can get to d8 with Deadly Simplicity if you wanna multiclass). Heck, you can even get higher than that with a crossbow, and crossbows are, as mentioned, better with Devise A Stratagem than they are normally.
Still feels like some unnecessary hurdles. As already established, a str/int investigator sounds like kind of a mess to put together. I don't see how letting them use a longsword or something would have left the game falling apart at the seams.
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Still feels like some unnecessary hurdles. As already established, a str/int investigator sounds like kind of a mess to put together. I don't see how letting them use a longsword or something would have left the game falling apart at the seams.
It probably wouldn't. But adding 4d6 on top of a greatsword is another matter, and unless you restricted it to one-handed weapons (which would be new and a weird restriction in a few ways), allowing one tends to allow the other.
I'm not necessarily saying this version is perfect, but the restriction does make sense from the perspective of not making their damage on par with Barbarian damage (which would be odd thematically).
and unless you restricted it to one-handed weapons (which would be new and a weird restriction in a few ways)
That's the language the Takedown Expert feat uses to keep you from using Greatclubs and Bo Staffs. So not that weird or new.
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And if combat style with any weapon is important to your character you can make a martial with the Investigator MC archetype. The MC Devise a Stratagem doesn't have the INT attack and precision damage but you'll have whatever schtick your main class has.
Greatsword Barbarian with Investigator archetype will work.
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Yeah I think if you want to go STR and focus on using a Greataxe, that's already pretty potent with a "I get to reroll/know I crit, etc" ability.
For instance, you can change weapons before the attack.
If I knew I was going to critical, that means I can spend an action drawing a Greataxe, and getting a BIG damage payout.
Since the replacement occurs at the time of the attack, that means you can choose the weapon before you make the attack roll.
That makes x3 weapons extremely good, because now it might be worth it to draw that weapon just to get the bonus damage (especially if you can triple the strike damage).
That also means, if you know you're going to crit/hit you can swap to the most advantageous weapon often.
Not going to lie, that makes Quickdraw really good on them, a pretty strong MCD grab.
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Yeah I think if you want to go STR and focus on using a Greataxe, that's already pretty potent with a "I get to reroll/know I crit, etc" ability.
For instance, you can change weapons before the attack.
If I knew I was going to critical, that means I can spend an action drawing a Greataxe, and getting a BIG damage payout.
Since the replacement occurs at the time of the attack, that means you can choose the weapon before you make the attack roll.
That makes x3 weapons extremely good, because now it might be worth it to draw that weapon just to get the bonus damage (especially if you can triple the strike damage).
That also means, if you know you're going to crit/hit you can swap to the most advantageous weapon often.
Not going to lie, that makes Quickdraw really good on them, a pretty strong MCD grab.
Just use a Shifting Rune to switch the weapon, also afaik x3 crit weapons aren't a thing in 2e?
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3x critical weapons aren't. Deadly and Fatal weapons absolutely are.
Just use a Shifting Rune to switch the weapon, also afaik x3 crit weapons aren't a thing in 2e?
I made an oof.
3x critical weapons aren't. Deadly and Fatal weapons absolutely are.
This though.
Also, if you have Weapon Specialization for Criticals, that means you can draw a weapon to use a certain Critical Specialization effect.
Suddenly the Improvised Weapon Archetype and Investigator became a match made in heaven. Thematically nice too.
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Do Investigators have any armor options? Trying to do a Str/Int build sounds fun, but if you're stuck in light armor forever and trying to keep up two non-save stats it seems like you'd be really fragile.It doesn't sound like it, but it does sound like the Sentinel Archetype is basically designed to fix this problem and only requires Medium Armor Proficiency as a prerequisite, so this issue seems solved by 4th level at the latest, and not to be a problem at all for humans if they're willing to invest a General Feat and a Class Feat.
Now reading the APG, I was misinformed. Sentinel on its own gives Medium Armor, which is plenty. You only need to spend a Feat if you want it to give you Heavy. So one Class Feat now solves all MAD builds that just need AC by 2nd level. So that's sweet.
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Another DaS use is to use Athletic Strategist to attempt to get out of Grabbed condition with a Grapple and if you fail to attempt an Escape instead both at full MAP.
This make a great combo with ASSASSINATE (lvl 12 feat)
As you are unoticed by the enemy means that you can roll dices until you hit the crit (avarage of 30" x natural 20).
It also combo really well with "ANARCHIC" rune and deadly weapon.
Exemple aplications:
Crossbow or compositve crossbow for stealth sniper (you can oneshot enemys from far away).
Invisibility + mele attack.
With half elf at lvl 9 you can take investigator multiclass for free, so level 10 you get this feat and lvl 12 assassinate if you want to do this combo with a rogue, ranger, warrior, monk, etc.
A fun option for Investigator/Fighter MC (either way) when you are next to an enemy is:
Devise a Stratagem. If it's a hit Strike and do whatever. If it's a crit Power Attack for more doubled dice.
Investigator main adds precision dice, Fighter main gets more crits and probably higher weapon dice.
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Devise a Stratagem + Double Slice with a Light Pick and a Longsword. Choose the first weapon depending on the roll.