Hey folks,
I'm a little confused about how the Black Blade from the Bladebound Magus Archetype - and perhaps intelligent items in general - work in relation to things like Dispel Magic and an Antimagic Field.
Namely, how much is a black blade hampered by these spells, if at all?
To what degree is a Black Blade “Magic”?
Or, phrased differently, is the Black Blade an evolving magic item granted by the Black Blade(Ex) class feature, or is the Black Blade itself an Ex ability which resembles an intelligent magic item?
Let’s start with relevant rules:
1) Special Abilities: Extraordinary Abilities (Ex) are nonmagical, unaffected by dispel magic, spell resistance, and antimagic fields. Supernatural Abilities (Su) are magical but not spell-like. They are unaffected by dispel magic and spell resistance, but don’t function in antimagic areas. Spell-like Abilities (Sp) are affected by spell resistance, can be dispelled (although not counterspelled), and don’t function in antimagic areas. Lastly, Natural Abilities are those not otherwise designated as Ex, Su, or Sp, and are instead abilities a creature has because of its form.
2)The Black Blade: the Black Blade is an Ex class feature for a bladebound magus. Its mental stats, ego, languages and skills, sense, and arcane pool are listed under “Black Blade Basics.” It is an Intelligent Item with its own abilities, including Ex, Su, and Sp abilities. The Enhancement Bonus of the Black Blade is included in a table titled Black Blade Progression (alongside many other special and basic abilities). It is not described as magic (though this is perhaps meaningless).
3)Intelligent items: Intelligent items are described as a subcategorization of magic items. They can be considered creatures and are to be treated as constructs.
4) Spell Resistance and implications: A relevant line here is “Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not.” This seems to imply that enhancement bonuses are supernatural abilities. Or perhaps this is saying that enhancement bonuses are additionally unaffected by spell resistance, but the current grammatical construction does not support that. As dispel magic and antimagic fields target magic items regardless, this might just be a meaningless distinction for this discussion.
5) Dispel Magic: Dispel Magic can end ongoing spell effects, counterspell, or suppress magic abilities of magic items. Specifically, “A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact).” Caster level checks are made to dispel effects or supress magic abilities.
6) Antimagic Field: Antimagic prevents spells, Sp, Su, and prevents the functioning of magic items inside. Notably, “while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that).” However, “The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures' spell-like or supernatural abilities may be temporarily nullified by the field.”
Okay, let’s put that all together.
Which of the following rulings are correct RAW?
For Antimagic Field:
The Black Blade is itself an Extraordinary ability (Ex) so it is unaffected and retains all its basic qualities, including sentience, senses, and enhancement bonus. Each of its own abilities, e.g.: Alertness, Telepathy, etc. are dealt with case by case. The black Blade only keeps Ex abilities.
The Black Blade is a construct which is unaffected by the field and retains all its basic qualities, including sentience and sense. The enhancement bonus is removed as it is a Su ability. Each of its own abilities, e.g.: Alertness, Telepathy, etc. are dealt with as above.
The Black Blade is a magic item and does not function inside the antimagic field except as a masterwork sword.
For Dispel Magic:
The Black Blade is an Extraordinary ability (Ex) so it is unaffected and retains all its basic qualities, including sentience, senses, and enhancement bonus. Each of its own abilities, e.g.: Alertness, Telepathy, etc. are dealt with case by case. The black Blade keeps Ex and Su abilities.
The Black Blade is a magic item, and with a successful caster level check (what’s the caster level for the Black Blade?) all of its magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds. In this case, What is suppressed?
••The Black Blade’s basic abilities (including sentience, senses, etc.)?
••The enhancement bonus? (Quite possibly yes.)
••All special abilities?
••Just Spell-like special abilities?
Thanks for taking the time everyone.
Enhancement bonuses are magical as would be any special weapon properties, so the black blade would lose them if in antimagic or if dispel magic is successfully used on it.
Any other abilities listed as supernatural or magical would also be suppressed in antimagic.
I look at it this way, if a non-sentient item was hit by these, what would happen? Anything magical, supernatural is suppressed (as appropriate for antimagic or dispel). This still happens to the black blade.
But it's an intelligent item and creature, and that isn't suppressed as these are extraordinary qualities of the creature. Just like a construct isn't affected by antimagic or dispel magic, neither is the black blade in terms of sentient or "basic abilities".
I am going with first and first.
I suppose I was a little hesitant to go with this ruling, because it seems like the intention that the black blade is essentially a sentient magic item provided by a class feature. If it is really entirely an Ex ability, then it is a boon to a magus, as they basically get to use a magic weapon in an antimagic field. But it might only be Ex (rather than Su) so that it doesn't go poof in an antimagic field, leaving the bladebound magus without their main (only?) weapon.
Are there any sources that support this?
Enhancement bonuses are magical as would be any special weapon properties, so the black blade would lose them if in antimagic or if dispel magic is successfully used on it.
Well, a difficulty here is that enhancement bonuses aren't necessarily magical, nor do either antimagic field or dispel magic explicitly strip away enhancement bonuses. They turn magical weapons non-magical, and in fact, they leave magic weapons masterwork, which provides a +1 enhancement bonus to attack. So my conflict is that if this black blade is an Ex ability that gains enhancement bonuses as an extension of the Ex ability, it wouldn't lose those bonuses.
Any other abilities listed as supernatural or magical would also be suppressed in antimagic.
I 100% agree. There's no other reason for the designers to have specified that these additional abilities are Ex, Su, and Sp as appropriate if not for them to be suppressed depending on the circumstance.
I look at it this way, if a non-sentient item was hit by these, what would happen? Anything magical, supernatural is suppressed (as appropriate for antimagic or dispel). This still happens to the black blade.
Yeah, that was my difficulty: in what ways are sentient items different from magic items (which would be affected as you described above), and in which additional ways are black blades different from sentient items (as black blades are presented as an Ex class feature).
Something that complicated my understanding is that the Blade Adept archetype for Arcanists provides a feature that functions and advances "as a black blade" except that it is a Supernatural ability. This would more explicitly lose all abilities in antimagic.
But it's an intelligent item and creature, and that isn't suppressed as these are extraordinary qualities of the creature. Just like a construct isn't affected by antimagic or dispel magic, neither is the black blade in terms of sentient or "basic abilities".
But oh! I hadn't attributed the mental stats or basic abilities of the black blade to it's creature-hood. But it's exactly in these ways that a sentient item is different from a magic item, so it makes sense that these would be the abilities of the construct portion of a sentient item. Dispel magic was tripping me up (as it doesn't explicitly mention construct - as in antimagic field), but it makes sense that dispel magic would no more strip away a sentient item's sentience than it would lobotomize a golem coming your way.
Enhancement bonuses are magical as would be any special weapon properties, so the black blade would lose them if in antimagic or if dispel magic is successfully used on it.Well, a difficulty here is that enhancement bonuses aren't necessarily magical, nor do either antimagic field or dispel magic explicitly strip away enhancement bonuses. They turn magical weapons non-magical, and in fact, they leave magic weapons masterwork, which provides a +1 enhancement bonus to attack. So my conflict is that if this black blade is an Ex ability that gains enhancement bonuses as an extension of the Ex ability, it wouldn't lose those bonuses.
That's an interesting point, but there are no examples to my knowledge of enhancement bonuses being non-magical above a +1. So, I think in this case you have a point, that the blackblade loses all magic (but would still be masterwork) and so have a +1 enhancement bonus. But as a GM I wouldn't let it retain anything above that, unless there are examples of enhancement bonuses that are non-magical besides masterwork.
but it makes sense that dispel magic would no more strip away a sentient item's sentience than it would lobotomize a golem coming your way.
Perhaps not the best example, since most golems are mindless to begin with but yes. It wouldn't impact the ability of the golem to attempt to carry out its order to the best of its limited mental capabilities.
You can't dispel Blackblade because you can't dispel a magic item. You need mage's disjunction for that, and that spell is powerful enough to just ruin the sword (or just revert it to a mwk weapon).
If that was misunderstood it's worth mentioning, willuwontu is correct that dispel would just temporarily suppress the blackblade's magical abilities.
My bad, I assumed she meant actually destroy/permanently dispel the item. I would assume that anything the intelligent magic item (include Blackblade) can actually do (actual Spell casting or Sp) besides house the soul (Ex and Su) would be suppressed for d4 rounds.
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The Blackblade is (Ex) and never referred to as a magic item. So I think for both Dispel Magic and Anti-magic field...
The Black Blade is itself an Extraordinary ability (Ex) so it is unaffected and retains all its basic qualities, including sentience, senses, and enhancement bonus. Each of its own abilities, e.g.: Alertness, Telepathy, etc. are dealt with case by case. The black Blade only keeps Ex abilities(For Antimagic field and retains Su abilities from Dispel Magic).
Only permanent magic items (as opposed to single-use items or those with charges) can be intelligent.
This is a fair counterpoint, but I think the Blackblade is a specific trumps general situation and bypasses that.